Ware on tsuba?

[Brian]

All,

 

I know we have spoken briefly about whether or not ware on tsuba are fatal, but I was wondering if anyone has any info on the following flaw on a tsuba I got recently on a wakizashi?

I am unsure if it is a casting flaw (doesn't appear to be cast to me?) or a flaw in the folding or forging?

The opening seems to run around a section of the tsuba, and then seems to go diagonally up to meet the edge of the tsuba. How badly are ware such as this regarded on tsuba?

Any info on the tsuba would also be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Hi Brian -- that looks like a forging flaw from a single fold. If you look into the sukashi you can see how that line actually goes around the area as the grain is different. Possibly a Kyo Shoami piece Momoyama to early Edo to my eye. The opening is probably due to a lack of flux in the seam causing the weld to fail over time as stress in the iron pulled the layers apart. It would be considered a point loss in a kantei/shinsa.

[Bungo]

I worry more about the first pic, seems like there'a a crack

 

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

Hey Milt -- yeah verily, a clack.

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/fittings/7400-7449/07404.html

[Brian]

Lol

 

Yes...looks like a clack, but if you look at it in hand, and you follow that ware around where it is not as noticeable, then that is where it comes up to the surface of the tsuba, so it is a continuation of the ware, not through the whole mimi.

 

Brian

[Pete Klein]

Hey Brian -- sorry, I couldn't resist . I think it's probably where the weld came to the surface (ji). It all depends upon how the bar was folded and then cut. Little trick: get a raw piece of pizza dough rolled out and fold it either once (like a U) or twice (like an S). Then take a glass and cut circles in different positions; middle, ends. You can see the different ways the folds can express themsleves along the mimi depending on where the maker cut/rounded the plate.

[remzy]

Lets pull this one by the hairs... and say that it might be layers split due to a very lucky sword block impact!

[Bungo]

the horizontal ware is not so bad in my opinion, but the first pic shows a crack that's all the way through

 

p.s. can you force the horizintal ware through, slpit it in two and get TWO tsuba ?

 

milt the ronin

[Brian]

Pete,

 

Thanks, I agree that is exactly what it is.

 

Milt..I see what you are refering to, but the bottom part of the "crack2 isn't really there, just caused by the loss of gold making it appear that way.

 

This is how the ware actually runs...

(I don't consider it too bad, gives it character and I bought the waki, not the tsuba )

[Pete Klein]

Brian -- that's a very good picture you just posted as when you look into the sukashi above the delineated 'clack' (LOL) you can plainly see the fold line running in the middle. Anyone who has not seen this before please note that this is a kantei point for determining age as you rarely see this after the early Edo period as the tsubashi went over to using factory forged plate thus eliminating the forging irregularities that gave much of the character to the old iron pieces.

[Rich T]

Pre Edo construction techniques often show 2 layer construction. With the old gold on the mimi, I agree with Pete's possible Kyo Shoami call.

 

The 2 layer construction can bee seen in Katchushi, Tosho, Saotome and even early Kaneie.

 

When seen in good condition, as on this Muromachi period Ko Shoami, it can look almost like a single long running bone.

 

 

I am not sure of the sword strike theory, the natural ware and tear of age can cause these flaws to open, plus careless handling by owners who would have cared less than the samurai that originally wore these on their swords.

 

I was able to ask Hagihara sensei once about ware on tsuba and he said, "while they probably will not paper unless something very special, there is nothing stopping us from enjoying the guards all the same". If you like the tsuba, then I think that is sound advice.

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[Pete Klein]

Exactamundo!

[Bungo]

" When seen in good condition, as on this Muromachi period Ko Shoami, it can look almost like a single long running bone. "

 

but................

 

don't forget the cast tsuba has this feature too. We call it the casting seam.

 

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

Ahso -- yes, Milton, we who collect traditionally forged iron tsuba know what you call it. We call our's senkotsu.

Honto ni arigato.

 

 

(lol)

[Rich T]

but they also have other nice traits like low quality (generally) and file marks on the seppa dai. Also, most cast tsuba have the seams filed off the mimi, it is in the sukashi we generally see this. But yes, you are right, they are both seams, one is a join, the other a fold.

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[Bungo]

Ahso -- yes, Milton, we who collect traditionally forged iron tsuba know what you call it. We call our's senkotsu.

Honto ni arigato.

 

 

(lol)

 

what a pompous arse...........lol, I love you boys.

\ :D

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

unfortunately I must differ on this as on the cast piece it is not really a 'seam' as that would be an area where two pieces are brought together. The line on a cast piece is actually the area where 'flash' extrudes into the 'seam' of the two moulds which have been brought together into close proximity. The molten metal (thank you Quasimodo) is forced into the seam and solidifies. When cooled and the piece is removed there is a circumferential 'flash' which is then removed by filing but which can easily show if not properly shaved.

[Bungo]

another example of the ware, this time on the inside of the sukashi, also traces of lacquer left ( or brown paint, LOL )

 

milt the ronin

[Bungo]

Ahso -- yes, Milton, we who collect traditionally forged iron tsuba know what you call it. We call our's senkotsu.

Honto ni arigato.

 

 

(lol)

 

google search...............

Akasaka TsubaThere are slight signs of senkotsu in the rim. ... The rim has profuse tekkotsu and senkotsu and multiple layers of metal are visible in the sukashi opening ...

home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/akasaka.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

 

but the reference to " Quasimodo " ? The hunchback of ND ? or that metal forge in the West Coast ? it's so obscure there's no way you can pull that name off the hat.........

milt the ronin

[Bungo]

or unless you mean................

 

" quasimodo

The first Sunday after Easter; Low Sunday.

 

Origin: So called from the first words of the Latin introit, quasi modo geniti infantes as newborn babes.

 

Source: Websters Dictionary

 

(01 Mar 1998) "

 

 

I salute your command of the language !!!

 

 

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

Milt -- well done on the pics. Interesting how the oxidation favors the weld as is shown by the invagination of the sukashi wall.

As for Quasimodo, from the 1939 'Hunchback of Notre Dame' film with Charles Laughton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunchb ... 39_film%29

Toward the finale of the film he prances around a cauldron of molten lead pronouncing, 'molten metal, molten metttal, molllten metttaaaaalllll', which he then turns over from the roof of the cathedral upon the crowds below.

I put it in for the movie buffs! LOL

I have to wonder if your derivation might have been the origin of Victor Hugo's use of the name?

[Pete Klein]

Yup -- it is:

Quasimodo, protagonist of the 1831 French novel The Hunchback of Notre Dame by Victor Hugo, was found abandoned on the doorsteps of Notre Dame on the Sunday after Easter and was named after this day.

(Wikipedia)

[Bungo]

lovely................ we are all Quasimodo of Nihonto world.

 

milt the ronin

[Pete Klein]

Hi -- hopefully we truely are.

[Ford Hallam]

we are all Quasimodo of Nihonto world.

 

absolutely!, particularly the way we all get the hump with one another so easily! :lol:

 

regards to all,

 

Ford

[Brian]

Welcome back Ford, you have been gone too long

Thanks Pete, Rich and Milt for the info. (Even if we do seem to develop ADD sometimes :D )

 

Brian