Bringback Sword Given To Me, Have Questions.

[huntsinmtns]

Hello,

 

new guy here never had a Japanese sword before,  so I am very concerned with preserving this one.  I had posted on another for firearms and a lot of guys said to come over here. So here I am with my sword. this is what I can tell you guys the blade is 28.5" from where the munemachi to tip of blade, I did not measure it OAL I can if needed,  I was told it is gemei  marked blade of Kuniyuki ( was told their are a few of them ).

 

The tip is broken but fortunately their is plenty of hamon  on the boshi, ( I am really trying please be patient with me ), approx. 18-19th century manufacture.

 

Should I have it retipped and polished ( some people offer a preservation polish for the not so collectible ), if so, does the sword warrant it. I apologize for all the questions, really need to make informed decision.

 

Best Regards,

 

George

[Grey Doffin]

Hi George,

Slow down.  Nothing needs to be done now; in fact you would be very smart to leave the sword as is until you learn more.  Here is a link to sword care & etiquette:

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

Stay away from those who want to give you a preservation polish.  They tend to be amateurs and do much more harm than good.

Grey

[Dr Fox]

Hi George

 

Grey is right walk slow. Have a look at the other posters who have asked the same questions.

Then see the demands for photo types, that will enable answers to be given.

A close up of the habaki asks nothing, and is not part of your enquiry.

Photographs can give you some valid answers here, but only if they show the areas where the answers are found.

Browse it will be worth your time.

[Jean]

George,

 

It is an economical decision. Cost of restoration more or or less 3,5/4k$ (polishing costs, insurance, transportation, shirasaya ..). Sword price restored once polished

[huntsinmtns]

Yes I seem to be rushing some, the broken tip is what bothers me most, the scabbard that came with it I already glued back together, better than the electrical tape holding together. In the meantime I look around the site and do more research as to avoid a costly mistake.

 

Thank you,

 

George

[huntsinmtns]

The scabbard as received. Forgot to post it.

 

George

[Dr Fox]

George I don't want to be the one to rain on your parade, but!! That is a shira saya, a resting case for the blade, its a protector sheath.

Warning! Its rice glue that is used to join those sides together, anything else could cause damage to the blade if put back into that saya.

Please unless you have done it right, do no more!!! 

 

The fact that the blade is in such a saya, could, could mean it is worthy of a proper exam.

[Kronos]

A few things, firstly it looks somewhat older than 18-19th century, probably Kanbun Shinto so circa 1660. As has already been said anyone offering a "preservation polish" is an amateur and more likely to do harm than good. Although there are a few non traditionally trained polishers who can do a decent job for low level items that don't warrant $3k spent, you could probably count them on one hand and even then reshaping as would be needed with the tip might be a stretch. To "preserve it" all you need to do is keep it lightly oiled with light mineral oil/sewing machine oil and that will stop any degradation.

 

The signature is not necessarily gimei but the only match I can see would probably be this guy http://nihontoclub.com/smiths/KUN1898. I've found an example where he's signed fujiwara Kuniyuki but not simply Kuniyuki but it's possible.

As for the tip it's hard to tell where the boshi ends so whether it can be polished out or not.

 

Your best bet is to try and see if there's anyone nearby who could take a look in hand or possibly take it to the next sword show in the USA where you'll get much better advice.

[Jean]

"Could mean" George, "could mean"... If the sword is not in a Koshirae, it is in a shirasaya, that's all.

 

- each blade has always to be examined closely.

- but it is gimei, so the economical analysis is still the same.

 

What is worth a gimei shin shinto/shinto blade? So unless it means really something to you, keep it as it is and for the same price (restoration price) ie 470 000¥ buy one in full polish.

 

http://www.aoijapan.com

 

Edit to add: niji mei is not so frequent in shinto/shinshinto period. Found none in Markus book (Kuniyuki).

[leo]

George, it might be the pictures, but I have the impression that the shinogi does not continue into the nakago? Is it flat?

 

Best, Martin

[bigjohnshea]

George,

 

Martin makes a fine point, as does every post above.  I don't see the shinogo in the kissaki at all, and I don't think it is there.

 

Something I wanted to add with regard to the comments about restoration is that the cost of restoration is truly only worth it for this blade if you absolutely are going to keep it.  What I mean is, if this is a personal heirloom you will keep for your entire life, maybe pass down to your family members, then restoring it is totally worth it.  You will be able to relish more in its beauty, and take pride in the fact that you gave new life to something that has value to your life.  However, that does not mean you must restore it.  More about that below.

 

If you do not have a personal connection to this sword, and are considering it just because you have a sword, and a sword is a thing of honor that you feel some duty to restore, then you should second guess that instinct.  Do not restore swords simply because they are things with unique heritage and honor.  Many others swords that need to be restored and honored are out there, they are everywhere, and the future owner of this sword takes no honor in paying for your restoration costs.

 

If you are doing it because you want to resell it for a potential profit, then think about it this way:  In my opinion, the only people who make a profit on reselling swords, are people who consign swords for someone else.  It's like the old axiom about making movies in Hollywood, the first rule of film production is "Never use your own money."  This is particularly true in this market.  There are fully papered katanas out there selling for half the price of a full restoration.  Someone, somewhere took a big financial hit on that sword, and 99 out of 100 times it isn't the consignor, it's the consignee.

 

Japanese swords have a relatively unique capacity to survive the test of time if cared for if even minimally.  As a result, there is a large market surrounding the restoration of them, a market which scarcely exists with swords from other origins.  Try finding a Viking sword that can be restored to its former beauty after years of not having been cared for.  It doesn't exist.  Does that sword not still hold the unique interests of the history of that culture?  Or that warrior who might have fought with it?  Ofcourse.  Swords do not have to be perfectly restored, papered by shinsa, and equisitely beautiful to be appreciated.

 

I've only been collecting swords for about 4 years.  I have much to learn myself.  However, I have learned alot of hard financial lessons during that time, and often those lessons came after the "good advice" of people who had a financial motive.  Do not repeat my mistakes or the mistakes of those who advise you above.

 

Hope you have a great week. 

Cheers,

[huntsinmtns]

George I don't want to be the one to rain on your parade, but!! That is a shira saya, a resting case for the blade, its a protector sheath.

Warning! Its rice glue that is used to join those sides together, anything else could cause damage to the blade if put back into that saya.

Please unless you have done it right, do no more!!! 

 

The fact that the blade is in such a saya, could, could mean it is worthy of a proper exam.

I had a cabinet maker friend glue it back together he used Elmer's wood glue and fishing line no clamps, he is my go to guy on broken Winchester or other rifle stocks. George

[huntsinmtns]

I will follow the advice you guys given me , the fact the makers mark is fake deters me from proceeding any farther ( it does seem to be a quality steel and some real work went into making it, being a toolmaker I can appreciate that, fact that one of my best friends gave it to me and his dad brought it home, is more than enough reason to keep it, so no financial incentive ), I love the history of when and where it may have used or by who,  I collect Lugers and Winchesters have for 35 years now, I have some lesser condition ones that I received from vets or family and have never touched so the sword will stay in that category as a historic weapon.  I attached three more pictures of questions that were asked  one for the shinogo and the other for Martin on the shinogi, I think these are the areas.  

 

Regards,

George

[bigjohnshea]

It looks like the shinogi does go into the nakago a bit. 

 

The boshi is barely visible, looks like omaru or komaru, and that the kissaki could be reshaped and still retain a boshi.

 

I think you're making the right decision just to keep it the way it is.  I don't think there's anything wrong with having had someone reglue the saya with care.  Worrying about scratches over time is only for swords that are in polish anyhow.  There's nothing in the saya I'm sure that will damage the blade very much.

 

Put some oil on it.  Respect it the way it is.  Take pleasure in its heritage and what esthetic you can see.

 

Cheers,

[Geraint]

Dear All.

 

Two points; why are we discussing this as gimei when we have nothing to compare it with?  So far all we know is that we have a nimei of Kuniyuki.  Second I don't think anyone has mentioned that it is tachi mei.  Given the condition of the nakago and other things this makes it seem even more likely  a gimei but we don't have much to go on yet, unless I am missing something.

 

Thirdly, (yes I know I said two points but hey!) the problem with the type of glue used for shirasaya is not confined to scratches, some modern glues seem to hold moisture in such a way that contact with the sword can cause rusting.  Most woodworkers would tend to apply too much glue and seepage inside the saya can be a real problem.

 

I'll crawl back into the woodpile now.

 

All the best

[Brian]

Shinogi goes into a nakago...or doesn't.

Hamon goes into a kissaki (boshi)..or doesn't.

Nijimei.

 

Brian

[bigjohnshea]

Dear All.

 

Two points; why are we discussing this as gimei when we have nothing to compare it with?  So far all we know is that we have a nimei of Kuniyuki.  Second I don't think anyone has mentioned that it is tachi mei.  Given the condition of the nakago and other things this makes it seem even more likely  a gimei but we don't have much to go on yet, unless I am missing something.

 

Thirdly, (yes I know I said two points but hey!) the problem with the type of glue used for shirasaya is not confined to scratches, some modern glues seem to hold moisture in such a way that contact with the sword can cause rusting.  Most woodworkers would tend to apply too much glue and seepage inside the saya can be a real problem.

 

I'll crawl back into the woodpile now.

 

All the best

 

Geraint,

Your point about the rust is taken. 

 

Not trying to be argumentative, but it sounds like you are proposing that he should have paid shipping to and from a professional togishi (or someone equally trained) so that they can charge him maybe 300-400$ to clean and reglue a shirasaya on a blade that was free, and which he has no intention of restoring; all to avoid the potential risk that his friend (who we know nothing about the skills of) would have overglued the saya, and that rust might develop.

 

Personally i wouldn't have glued it at all.  I would have just wrapped it in cellophane and been done with it.

 

I think worrying about the perfection of the glue on this sword's saya is like worrying about the curtains on the Titanic.

 

 

Brian,

My brain constantly mixes up the words kissaki and nakago.  Thank you for pointing out my error.  Probably won't be the last time...

[Brian]

John,

We have had several threads about repairing shirasaya, and why certain glues are bad and can damage blades. All of them tell you how to do it yourself, without having to send it out. The point is to prevent further damage, not cost the owner a lot of money

It is done now, but Geraint's point is valid and will maybe help the next guy.

Try this thread: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/15677-saya-coming-unglued-suggestions

 

Brian

[bigjohnshea]

Brian,

I agree absolutely about not preventing further damage, but it would not have been my first instinct to seek out resources to do it myself so I was not at all thinking along those lines.

Thanks for the link, and the knowledge.

Cheers, 

[huntsinmtns]

All he did was use Elmers white glue, no acids as far as I know, very safe ( no seepage inside nice clean lines and Joe said to let dry a few days, sword is not in it yet, I even left all the tape marks on it ) ). I thought I had made a informed decision that I took it as the sword was not valuable, except to me, did I read into this wrong ?  Fake mei but early sword, not worth much, I am confused again.   Thanks George

[Brian]

George,

In the Japanese sword world, "not much" can be $800 or $1000 or more. So depends on your definition I guess.

Fake mei is not a train smash, if it is gimei. For now, preserve it until you can get someone to look at it in hand.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Sorry, but how a shira saya is assembled is important, as far as I am concerned.

The saya is Japanese, and its function to care for a blade, is the reason for its being.

The use of rice glue, allows the splitting of the saya at a later date should there be a need.

The use of modern glues in all their forms can gas, or exude moisture. A blade in that proximity will be damaged.

To advocate to a novice that anything, but the Japanese way is acceptable, disturbs me as a caretaker of these art forms.

Call me old fashioned, but its the only way I know. 

[Dr Fox]

George

To add to my last.

Here is a wakizashi blade after polish, it is sitting in its opened, original Japanese shira saya.

Re opening the saya allows for cleaning and adjustments, as the blade has been polished.

All parts will be re-assembled using rice paste glue, the proper way.

 

Pl note.

This saya had been glued with a wood glue of some type, the expert separated it with some patience, to see it now you can't tell.

Oh, and the blade is a delight and gi mei.

 

[huntsinmtns]

I see your point, if it is consolation it is not sticking, the top where the blade goes is already splitting at the seam, apparently elmers is not strong enough. That would be like me storing a Pre WW1 Luger in the holster.  Regards, George

Sorry, but how a shira saya is assembled is important, as far as I am concerned.

The saya is Japanese, and its function to care for a blade, is the reason for its being.

The use of rice glue, allows the splitting of the saya at a later date should there be a need.

The use of modern glues in all their forms can gas, or exude moisture. A blade in that proximity will be damaged.

To advocate to a novice that anything, but the Japanese way is acceptable, disturbs me as a caretaker of these art forms.

Call me old fashioned, but its the only way I know. 

[huntsinmtns]

Dr Fox, that makes me feel better, thank you. I will let mine separate again, as it is on its way.  Very nice display with  the sword like that.  George

George

To add to my last.

Here is a wakizashi blade after polish, it is sitting in its opened, original Japanese shira saya.

Re opening the saya allows for cleaning and adjustments, as the blade has been polished.

All parts will be re-assembled using rice paste glue, the proper way.

 

Pl note.

This saya had been glued with a wood glue of some type, the expert separated it with some patience, to see it now you can't tell.

Oh, and the blade is a delight and gi mei.

[huntsinmtns]

I am so used to hearing fake in the US on WW2 or civil war era firearms, immediately it is junk or tainted, the value is gone. Same as restored,  Thank you for the clarification, George

George,
In the Japanese sword world, "not much" can be $800 or $1000 or more. So depends on your definition I guess.
Fake mei is not a train smash, if it is gimei. For now, preserve it until you can get someone to look at it in hand.

Brian

[Grey Doffin]

Hi George,

Here is a quick, easy, harmless, and completely reversible method for putting the saya right to do the job it was meant for.  Cut strips of paper about 1" wide and long enough to wrap about 1 1/2 times around the saya.  Wrap a strip around about 7 or 8" below where you want a reinforcing band.  Tightly wrap the paper with masking tape.  Now invert the saya on a flat surface and shove the paper/tape down towards the mouth of the saya.  Since the saya increases in size as it approaches its mouth, as you push, the paper/tape will get very tight.  Do this in 3 or 4 places on the saya and you once again have a saya to hold the blade.  To reverse, just push the paper/tape the other direction.

No damage done.

Your friend the cabinet maker didn't do good work.  Always avoid amateur Japanese sword repair.

Grey, a furniture maker

[bigjohnshea]

Sorry, but how a shira saya is assembled is important, as far as I am concerned.

The saya is Japanese, and its function to care for a blade, is the reason for its being.

The use of rice glue, allows the splitting of the saya at a later date should there be a need.

The use of modern glues in all their forms can gas, or exude moisture. A blade in that proximity will be damaged.

To advocate to a novice that anything, but the Japanese way is acceptable, disturbs me as a caretaker of these art forms.

Call me old fashioned, but its the only way I know. 

 

Call me new age then because I stopped using uchiko about a year ago to clean my blades, and replaced it with microfiber towels.

 

 

My last comments on this topic:

 

The guy sent his saya to his friend to get it glued back together.  Ok.  None of us know the long long term consequences of that well enough to say that he will irreparably damaged his sword in the long run, and to say that we do is just silly.  Let's not forget that these swords were made at one time to be soaked in blood, and smashed against armor.  If you're really going to get worked up about the potential impact of dry Elmer's glue then I think you are forgetting that the blade was meant to be resilient.

 

No, I wouldn't put one of my Tokubetsu Hozon swords I invested nearly five digits in into a shirasaya with Elmer's glue holding it together, but we're also not talking about that sword.  No, I don't want his sword to be damaged, but over time if he notices a problem developing he can take steps to fix it.

 

As a general point, I think we put much too much emphasis on making sure that EVERYTHING involving these swords is done with absolute perfection and compliance with Japanese tradition.  In the long run we end up making the process of collecting so expensive, so tedious, so overwhelming that it makes it impossible to just have an old sword and not go broke owning it.  It is one thing to care for a sword that is a masterwork, meant as a work of art, or that has significant value to the collecting community.  It is perhaps another thing to care for a sword that is a weapon and a weapon alone.  Not all Japanese swords are contributors to the art form, and not all of them need to be treated like artwork, conserved like artwork, polished by only the highest trained people (at the highest expense), put in a saya that can't possibly scratch it or cause it some harm, etc. etc.

 

Sorry, but it's true.  They don't all belong in a museum, and I learned the hard way that if you treat them all like that you end up spending alot more money than they are worth.

[huntsinmtns]

Hi Grey,

 

he is a good cabinet maker and fixes my antique rifle stocks with great success using titebond, he said he being careful because the wood is old and I told him to use elmers, he wanted titebond. So as it stands I am glad I can get it back apart without damage.  I like your suggestion, I will try it. What part of MN are you in, I am in WI, I do a lot of muskie fishing up north and grouse hunting, I could drag it along sometime ? Oh I can relate to amateurs, do you know many people think they are machinists or welders. Scary. 

Regards George,  Sr. Tool  maker   

[Grey Doffin]

Hi George,

I'm in Duluth and you are welcome by anytime.  My contact is found at my website, noted below.

Cheers,  Grey