New Kantei Form

[Jean]

Some have already the answer

 

 nagasa 70.0 cm, sori 2.4 cm, motohaba 2.8 cm, sakihaba 1.9 cm, kissaki-nagasa 3.1 cm, nakago-nagasa 20.0 cm, nakago-sori 0.1 cm. Den attribution, the sori is impressive, unsual utsuri.

Kantei Sheet0001.pdf

[pcfarrar]

Some have already the answer

 

The answer is in the file name of the images.

[Jean]

Yes Peter, I changed it 

[Kronos]

Do we get a photo of the entire sword?

[Jean]

here it is

[jensen6865]

Hi,

 

Beginners first guess- Enju. Since Hi ends lower perhaps after Kamakura or late? Don't have a real solid idea yet of what hotsure looks like.

 

Please don't laugh, haven't been at this long, but I really like it, Dan 

[Mark]

Ko-Mihara ?

[Jean]

Thanks a lot to have dared to participate.

 

Not bad guys, you are pretty good. I shall give the answer Friday, considering that other members would like to have a shot at it. It is not so easy for a few reasons I shall detail. It is not easy, even NBTHK conclusion are laconic and lack demonstration. :-)

What would be educational is that both of you give your reasonning.

 

I expect:

 

Period?

School?

Smith?

[jensen6865]

Okay, Here goes, I really think Jean is just making me look like the amateur I really am!!! Not really, I think this way of learning is way, way better than just looking, looking and reading! At least I have learned more!

 

Sugata-looks more Tori-zori than Koshi-zori-at least with some smiths later in Kamakura or on, Not huge, wide or thin and no long Kissiki of Nambokucho. Sori-almost an inch- early blade.  

             Motohaba is only 2.8cm, pretty narrow for Nambokucho, some narrowing up the blade, Suraige- at least from meks are quite a ways apart- first position one handed of Muromachi? Don't think so to me- doesn't feel heavy or thick  

             enough. Nagasa still 70 cm. Pretty long. 

Bohi- down from some I've seen, made when need some space/length to sharpen kissiki. Later kamakura at least?

Hamon-continues nicely all the way up and around the kissiki, boshi-not late when some midari-komi? Nie- early, nice even suguha hamon.

Hada- looks very even and well forged, no Chikei listed, steel doesn't look bright and shiny as late more modern steels. 

Period- Late Kamakura?

School-I was more bold at first- kind of felt like Enju-now... it doesn't seem to all fit....

Smith- I don't have a clue. 

 

Feeling like I need to look and read and engage in this a lot, lot more, Dan

 

Please be hard and bluntly direct so I may learn!

[paulb]

Dan

you are absolutely right that Kantei is a very useful learning tool, if not the best.

Originally the process was aimed at establishing

1. Is it a good sword

2. What period does it come from

and finally

3. What School and if possible smith

The form Jean uses is great I came across it for the firs time at the kantei event at the DTI last year and asked Robert Hughes for a couple of copies. I think it forces you to look in a disciplined and logical way at the features that wil  leadyou to an answer.

Regarding Jean's sword, which I think is stunning I am going to decline to comment as I think I know it quite well and to offer an answer might be considered cheating

[jensen6865]

I want to learn to cheat!!!

Dan

[Kronos]

I agree with Paul completely, Kantei has pushed me to explore things I otherwise wouldn't and made me learn a lot through necessity.

 

I'll have a go at this later tonight.

[Toryu2020]

Late Kamakura period

Yamato Den - Shikkake school

Shodai Norinaga

[Brian]

Will try and find some time this weekend to have a go.

 

Brian

[Jussi Ekholm]

I'm going to go with

 

Period: Late Kamakura - Early Nanbokucho

School: Yamato - Tegai

Smith: Kane X (not skilled enough to differentiate smiths)

[Jean]

You guys are very good, you are exactly at the level I am in front of this sword. Of course, you are all wrong. At kantei, I would have said Tegai, but there are two objections: no high shinogi (not easily visible on a sword unless strongly visible) and the ji nie is not so strong, you are very close. A hint, the smith made slender tachi and had masame in his hada.

 

Answer, tomorrow.

[Jean]

Brian wanting to have a go this week-end, answer postponed to Monday. If others want to have a try, they are welcome. It is an interesting exercise, in a kantei, what is interesting is the reasonning, the result is only a consequence.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Okay, let's try it another way, Jean. I hadn't noticed your kantei sheet, so thanks for that extra info. I do wish your photos were larger, though, mostly because I can't tell if the yakidashi goes past the machi.

 

Utsuri is seen on Bizen & some Soshu blades, but since it's nie-deki, it's likely not Bizen. That's supported by the fact that it's torii-zori, although it still could be suriage, even if the photo makes it look ubu. The sugata looks Nambokucho to me, & probably early as it looks more graceful than other Nambokucho blades I've seen. Could this be a Rai?

 

Ken

[wbt]

I think based on sugata, mix of itame and masame hada which appears to stand out, shirake utsuri (seen in some kunimune blades), suguha and nie hotsure. Also the the fact you said it wasn't obvious, but looks like a Yamato den product.

 

nambokucho/early muromachi

Uda

nidai kunimune or 3rd gen.

 

Long shot, but Uda is pretty generic.

Regards

Brent

[Kronos]

Time period: Late kamakura

School: Rai

Smith: Ryōkai

 

Edit: Changed my answer to Ryokai, seems to fit better...

[Jean]

Atari James

 

 

Not an easy Kantei as his swords are not often seen and above all becausee often his works can be mistaken to Yamato swords, 

 

 

A comment from NBTHK on a Ryokai sword:

" in short, the jiba is not as bright and clear as we would expect it from a Rai work. So the tachi is a work of Ryokai who was a Yamashiro smith too. As mentionned, the jiba of for example Kunitoshi, Kunimitsu and other Rai smiths would be clearer and brighter, the nioiguchi would be wider and more nie and hataraki would appear within the ha."

 

From this comment one can see that Ryokai is a smith  apart in the Yamashiro Rai school. You will notice that he is the only smith in the Rai school not to be called Rai and he has not the kanji Kuni in his name, same for his lineage, his son Hisanobu and grandson Nobukuni. In fact Ryokai swords are either Yamato influenced or Rai oriented. Some of his swords are typically Yamato, high shinogi, masame... It is oversimplified to compare all his works to Rai Kunitoshi. Common point, they both have a mix of nie and masame combined and his work is presented as slightly inferior to sanji Kunitoshi

Compare to Yamato Tegai, Ryokai hada has very fine ko nie, sugata is slenderer and usually his daito have a strong torii sori. His hada is characterised by the mix of itame/ko itame and masame or itame nagare and a shirake utsuri, some fine chikei can be found. In the ha some ashi can appear and ko choji, hotsure. The nioiguchi is tight and somewhat subdued.

 

Ryokai-juyo (1).pdf

Ryokai-juyo1 (2).pdf

[Kronos]

I did have a post written about my reasoning as Jean requested but accidentally pressed the back button and lost it all. Suffice to say the Sugata is clearly Late Kamakura and could only really be either Yamato or Yamashiro with that hada so that narrows it down somewhat. It didn't seem like Yamato even with the masame as it lacks  a high shinogi etc and I wouldn't expect masame just near the HA, but mixed in and more often near the mune. Just from looking at it it reminded me of Rai but i couldn't tell you why exactly, especially the Rai Kunimitsu on Darcy's site. After going round all the Yamato/Yamashiro schools of the time it didn't seem to fit in anywhere due to the lack of activity except Chu-Enju, however that would be too late for the Sugata and the Hada should be less refined. The Boshi is reminiscent of Rai Kunitoshi who was my first guess As Kunimitsu was a lot more flamboyant although with Kunitoshi you'd still expect Ashi, Sunagashi, Kinsuji,ko-chogi and so on as well as the shirakke utsuri and masame being wrong.

 

So at this point I was floating round Rai or one of the offshoots like Enju and decided to look at Markus' Koto Kantei Zenshu and while browsing Yamashiro found Ryokai which was a perfect match. More subtle than Kunitoshi without all the activity in the Hamon, the slender sugata, shirake utsuri and masame near the ha, everything finally clicked into place.

 

It took me about 2 hours and i doubt anyone else spent anywhere near that time so perseverance pays off

 

This was a fun exercise and I learnt a lot about yamashiro which is probably my weakest gokaden so you should post more of these Jean if not make it a regular thing

[paulb]

James

You have just proven to yourself and I hope many others something a number of us have been pushing for some time. Kantei is an excellent learning tool, regardless of whether you get to the right answer or not. As you said it forced you to study a tradition and school you might not have otherwise looked at. As a result you have learned more about Yamashiro work than you knew before. BTW two hours is nothing, I can spend days on some of the NBTHK kantei when things dont seem to fall in to place.

Well done in reaching the right result.

[Jean]

Kantei becomes very complicated when you deal with a Ryokai sword with high shinogi. Concerning masame along the hamon, Yamato schools have it too, you find it in Tegai.

 

The Juyo zufu is very concise for the least in its conclusion:

 

"This blade is ô-suriage mumei and came with an older attribution to Ryôkai and as it is hardened in suguha and shows a tendency towards masame in the ha, we agree with this attribution." That is probably the shortest Kantei analysis and reasonning I have read.

 

Furthermore, the utsuri is described as shirake. In fact, when you look at the blade it is a midare utsuri which faded in shirake utsuri, itis probably why the attribution is "Den Ryokai".

[Jussi Ekholm]

Very nice one James.

 

I have to confess I used much more than 2 hours on this kantei guess.

 

These online kantei quizzes are always very fun to try out. Maybe we could have an ongoing thread for Aoi Arts kantei quizzes? I've been trying to guess them when I have free time but doing them in group would be more fun than doing them alone.

[Loco Al]

 

It took me about 2 hours and i doubt anyone else spent anywhere near that time so perseverance pays off

 

 

Have you ever heard the saying: Humble in victory, gracious in defeat?

 

A bit presumptive of you to say that you "doubt anyone else spent near that time". Followed by a "crazy"  emoticon? Certainly not very consoling towards other members like Jussi who gave it a good college try (and risked embarrassment if they got it wrong).

 

I know, it's like the pot calling the kettle black (since I have posted some of the most ungracious stuff recently).

 

Kudos to you, Kronos, for arriving at the correct attribution.

 

Myself, I probably spent well over four hours (possibly much more) poring through the Connoisseur's Book and searching for information online. I am still relatively inexperienced, and perhaps somewhat stupid. As Ken-Hawaii suggested (he tipped us off), it might belong to the Rai school, I was leaning toward a Rai school attribution.

 

Jean gave us the clue that it did not have a high shinogi. Therefore, that ruled out most of the Yamato schools. There was also the perplexity of the shirake utsuri and the itame hada (with some masame hada).  At one point, I was also wondering if it might be a Rai copy by the Muromachi smith Kanesada (No Sada).

 

It was a very entertaining exercise, and I learned much from it. Thank you, Jean.

 

Alan

[Jean]

People who have papered swords could have a try at posting them.:-)

 

The kantei sheet I have provided thanks to Robert Hughes courtesy is probably the greatest way to learn/possess ones's sword.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Jean, I have a more detailed kantei sheet downloadable at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87217426/Nihonto%20Documentation%20Master.pdf

 

It's a fillable PDF file, so you can fill in kantei points, & then print it out. I've created & have been using it to document my collection for many years.

 

Ken

 

[Brian]

Alan,

Once again, jumping to confusions. You might want to take a time-out before posting nowdays.

Have you considered that James was poking fun at himself, and calling himself crazy for obsessing over the answer??

At least that is how I read it...without even the slightest of offense.

Seems the is starting to drift your way...

 

Brian

[Kronos]

Have you ever heard the saying: Humble in victory, gracious in defeat?

 

A bit presumptive of you to say that you "doubt anyone else spent near that time". Followed by a "crazy"  emoticon? Certainly not very consoling towards other members like Jussi who gave it a good college try (and risked embarrassment if they got it wrong).

 

I know, it's like the pot calling the kettle black (since I have posted some of the most ungracious stuff recently).

 

Kudos to you, Kronos, for arriving at the correct attribution.

 

Myself, I probably spent well over four hours (possibly much more) poring through the Connoisseur's Book and searching for information online. I am still relatively inexperienced, and perhaps somewhat stupid. As Ken-Hawaii suggested (he tipped us off), it might belong to the Rai school, I was leaning toward a Rai school attribution.

 

Jean gave us the clue that it did not have a high shinogi. Therefore, that ruled out most of the Yamato schools. There was also the perplexity of the shirake utsuri and the itame hada (with some masame hada).  At one point, I was also wondering if it might be a Rai copy by the Muromachi smith Kanesada (No Sada).

 

It was a very entertaining exercise, and I learned much from it. Thank you, Jean.

 

Alan

 

Unfortunately that was my attempt at humility and it must not come as naturally as it does to you Alan. Maybe I misjudged how long others may of taken on this. In retrospect the 2 hours plus however long I took when I first saw the thread wasn't a great deal of time, especially with how obsessive this hobby can be. As Brian alluded to ones " :crazy:"  was aimed markedly at oneself and I apologize if anyone took offense at my conduct. I'll be the first to admit that I got lucky and would be knowhere if i had the sword in hand with no books.

 

P.S. there should never be any embarrassment when education is the main focus so it would be a shame if anyone felt that way or even worse - didn't have a go out of fear.