Kamakura Tanto

[Ken-Hawaii]

Did any of you take a look at the Awataguchi Yoshimitsu tanto that was recently sold on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/361225015114?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)? That's a pretty big name, the blade looks valid, & the koshirae are excellent.

 

Ken

[Kronos]

Big name, but would someone from Japan really of sold it on ebay without first trying to get it papered, or at the very least taken it down to try and sell at their local sword shop?

 

99% gimei and tired so the question becomes what does the workmanship show?

[paulb]

Hi Ken

Blade looks ok but not like the Yoshimitsu I have seen (which admittedly are very few) and the mei is also not typical. The ones I have seen that have been authenticated were priced in excess of $50K and some a whole lot more. If there was any liklihood of being by the Awataguchi smith surely the seller would have had it looked at and papered rather than selling it at such a very low price.

Might well be A yoshimitsu and of period just not THE Yoshimitsu (probably the greates exponent of tanto there has ever been)

[Darcy]

Awataguchi Yoshimitsu is celebrated for his beautiful signature. Samonji is compared to Yoshimitsu in this regard and they probably have the two most elegant signatures, like brush script. Yoshimitsu was considered the top smith of the Nihon San Saku, ahead of Masamune and Go. So, you can pretty much count on the fact that if there was any shot at it being legitimate that it would have been properly handled in Japan. 

 

This is what the signature should look like if it were legitimate. Without a doubt the ebay one is not Awataguchi Yoshimitsu by the work or the signature. 

 

[Marius]

Tosa Yoshimitsu would be the usual suspect. The sugata says late Muromachi. BTW, this blade is most likely saiha.

[Dr G]

 

 

Scholarly comments all. It was I who bought the Yoshimitsu, hoping as so many times in the past, that it would turn out to be as great as I imagine. And SO MANY TIMES, I've been wrong, as I expect I'll be wrong so many times in the future.

Indeed, it could be saiha, since the yakidashi seems at an obtuse angle, and does not continue into the nakago. Then again, I've seen yakidashi like this, and it terminates considerably above the Hamachi, not on the cutting edge. If the nakago were reshaped, the overall proportions (mei/ana location) would look odd, and I'm waiting until I have the sword in hand to judge that. I'll have to see if there is muneyaki and any sign of mizukage.

The mei appears to have been cut with a broader chisel than the oshigata from Darcy and the kanji are more angular. I had a problem with the mei before purchase, but my resources are limited to 2 oshigata in Fujishiro. If I could see even 10 confirmed Awataguchi Yoshimitsu oshigata, then I could be certain of the counterfeit or the authenticity. On the other hand, the nakago is long and narrow (like Nagayama says), and lacking curvature and taper as pictured in Fujishiro. It is quite unlike the funagata of Tosa Yoshimitsu

What is striking is the hataraki: long flowing hakikake, exuberant nie, sunagashi transitioning into inazuma. The hada looks to have konie and there is koitame, more visible near the Hamachi. Again, I need the blade in hand. Yubashiri might then be evident.

The habaki is solid silver, a little sign of sorts, like my Kunzan sayagaki Rai Kunimitsu that I purchased 7 years ago from this dealer. Indeed, most of the time, you find rubbish on eBay, but then for a 50 year collector like me, it's thrilling to imagine and hope, and once in a blue moon, when you get a papered Ichimonji or a Shodai Kunimura as I have, it's reassuring.

So, I hope we're looking at a Nihon Sankaku, but if we're not, I've bought a yoroi doshi with exquisite same koshirae, and from what I can see, exciting yakiire that place it a bit above, for $600.

Counting on your support.

[John A Stuart]

Yakiotoshi on osuriage swords is not necessarily a sign of saiha. John

[Dr G]

I neglected to sign my post (Dr G).

 

Glenn

[cabowen]

  On 3/9/2015 at 11:27 PM, John A Stuart said:

Yakiotoshi on osuriage swords is not necessarily a sign of saiha. John

 

 

I'm having a hard time understanding how that is possible, unless the yakiotoshi is several inches above the original hamachi.....Or are you inferring that the yakiotoshi could result from heating the blade to remove the hamon to make the suriage easier?

[Dr G]

Yakiotoshi that one sees with retempering strikes the cutting edge. So if we were to postulate saiha, then the point at which the yakiotoshi meets the nakago must have been habakimono...or EDGE. If you try to picture that point as edge, the proportions become aberrated and the sword looks "funny."

So, I DOUBT SAIHA in this blade. I think it's ubu and I think we're seeing Yakidashi.

What I said about reshaping the nakago involves what would be necessary to obscure the yakiotoshi and make it appear to intersect the edge of the nakago instead of the cutting edge.

 

Glenn

[Marius]

Glenn,

 

this tanto is very tired, but the yakiba is broad and the (healthy) hamon follows the edge. Try to imagine it in its original shape with the current hamon.

 

*edit admin*
Admittedly, spotting saiha is sometimes not so easy, and there are more saiha swords out there than we care to admit, even papered ones. 

 

In this hobby, wishful thinking is our enemy. 

 

This is not to say that you cannot enjoy this tanto. But it is neither a Kamakura tanto, nor a Toshiro Yoshimitsu. And it is (most likely) saiha. Just my opinion of course.

[Darcy]

 

 

  Quote

And SO MANY TIMES, I've been wrong, as I expect I'll be wrong so many times in the future.

 

Well there are these two ways of playing the game, the one is constant speculation hoping that it is going to turn out, and the other is to buy one that already turned out. If $600 spent is fine for your budget for collecting and you are happy with the piece then there is nothing wrong with that at all. 

 

But on a reasonable level you can't expect that any Japanese person is going to turn out one of the all time great smiths on ebay for pennies. So you have to go in with the expectation that there is no hope, you are kind of deluding yourself if you see a Japanese dealer throwing this kind of thing out there. 

 

There are finds to be had on ebay and I know members here that have found real treasures there by being smart (you know who you are) ... a simple check for who is doing the selling and estimating their level of experience is going to go a long way towards predicting what your end result is (i.e. whether your hope is reasonable or not). In this case it was in no way a reasonable hope. 

 

Ther are 20 items that the NBTHK passed as Yoshimitsu at the Juyo and higher level. Anything that is found provided it is not completely dead with a signature of this smith is going to pass Juyo. Anyone dealing in swords in Japan is going to know exactly who Yoshimitsu is. And Muramasa. And Masamune... and so on. 

 

So when you buy from one of them advertising such a thing to a western audience you can kind of assume that it has already failed to convince anyone in Japan. 

 

You have to basically consider that these sellers have self interest. They act in their own self interest. If they are putting it on ebay where it might fetch $600 then this is probably in the seller's estimate the maximum value they can get for it. 

 

Yoshimitsu... I own one of the 20 and it's the one that is pictured. The cost of these things is immense. I just viewed a famous one in Japan and the dealer wants 40 million yen for it. And it is a suriage tanto with some condition issues. 

 

By all means keep the hope going and go do the prospecting for swords, but you are better off if you don't let your hope make the decision for you, you can apply a little bit of reason towards it and maybe that $600 can be better spent. I think at best this thing is going to be some kind of mumei Muromachi tanto if it were to be fully assessed. Saiha or not I can't tell from this but the signature I don't think is legit for anyone. 

 

A lot of the times people get very excited at maybe discovering something and then they ask for opinions only after they've paid for it, instead of maybe slowing down a bit and involving some closer friends and seeking their opinions before jumping in. Whenever I've seen something that caught my eye on ebay I've always fired it off to a friend or two for opinions, if at least to get a bucket of cold water thrown on my head. That is a good thing to have. Otherwise if you accumulate a bunch of the $600 to $1500 speculative items that do not pan out, you could probably have gotten a nice and very legitimate item in exchange for that money outlay and what you get is very difficult to sell. 

 

That said though: there is no "correct" approach to the hobby. If someone's joy is to go and be speculative and to roll the dice, there is nothing wrong with that, it's just a different approach. Like I can't say to someone they are wrong if they want to go to Las Vegas and spend a week in front of the slot machines losing money. They got a week's entertainment, it made them thrilled to be out there doing it and there was a net cost for that. There is no difference for someone who wants to spend a bunch of money on fine dining, or going to plays, or expensive wine, or whatever experience or collecting they want to do. 

 

Just as long as you do it with a reasonable expectation of success... and with a Japanese seller dumping stuff on ebay with wildly optimistic attributions and near zero cost, don't let your own hope play you too hard.

[Marius]

Darcy,

 

could you please post some more pictures of your Yoshimitsu? This would be very educational. I am (like most of us here, I dare say) a great fan of your photography and of your write-ups of various great swords. I hope this is not too much to ask. Only if you don't want to keep your Yoshimitsu confidential, of course. There are sometimes good reasons to do so, so nobody should be put off if you said "sorry, no"...

 

Just asking 

[Darcy]

Have to be patient a couple of months and it will be ready for release into the wild...

 

Ted will be able to show it this summer in San Francisco.

[Marius]

Great, thank you 

[Nihonto Chicken]

  On 3/12/2015 at 9:54 AM, Darcy said:

Have to be patient a couple of months and it will be ready for release into the wild...

 

Ted will be able to show it this summer in San Francisco.

Great, can't wait for August, there will now be some decent visual competition should I decide to display my dearly purchased BABB* blades for sale!

 

*Battered And Butchered Bungo