Juyo Shikkake In Germany

[Brian]

We do not focus on pricing here. Simple as that. Sometimes pricing may come into a discussion..but it is not our focus and never will be.

We are not here to tell people what is expensive and what isn't. I am not prepared to take on that liability here.

I am tentatively ok with people sometimes pointing out an obviously good deal (which can be disputed if people disagree) but that is about the limit of liability I am prepared to accept.

 

Brian

[Darcy]

1. Knowledgeable, knows what he wants, but blessed with so much money that it doesn't matter if it is overpriced. 2. Naïve, but trusting. Buying into the hype provided by a dealer about sword "A", and made to believe that it is the pick of the litter and very exclusive. He's flattered and encouraged to return. As with type 1., he has so much money that it never occurs to him to seek other expert opinions about his recent acquisition. He will only find out the hard truth when it comes time to sell his sword, and no one wants to pay anything close to what he paid for it originally.

 

 

Not everything is a scam.

 

Sometimes it is indeed the pick of the litter. There was a Gojo in San Francisco last year that was in immaculate condition. The owner had a six figure plus-plus figure on it. Worth every penny. Pick of the litter.

 

Anyone who knows swords should want that sword. Few can or could afford it.

 

You have a depressing false dichotomy there that a buyer of high end items needs either to be rich and not care about wasting his money or else a fool who is easily tricked. Buyers of swords tend to be really thoughtful and quite smart with their money and come from fields that require a lot of education. I have never had a rock star or a guy fresh out of college who just signed an NFL contract and is pouring his wallet out come and ask me for a sword. 

 

It's been CEOs who run high level businesses, bankers, doctors, lawyers, scholars, martial artists, computer programmers, entrepreneurs and small business operators. Generally guys with smarts that earned them money and often with business backgrounds that are absolutely contrary to throwing cash away and/or being naive about making business deals.

 

Swords actually among collectables are pretty good in terms of them having a low multiple between commodity and highly desirable items. You don't see the same thing in diamonds where a 4% difference can generate the price being doubled. Or baseball cards say where very fine differences in condition create arbitrary categories into which items that are pieces of paper printed by machines become highly valued in increasing price buckets. 

 

With swords you have the option to buy something that is a commodity blade like a Chu-jo shinto wakizashi (it was made as a self defense tool and it is a commodity now) vs. something that is a historical artifact, like if you could have a good condition signed ubu Shintogo Kunimitsu tachi you would be in the possession of something which is an essential part of history and a cultural treasure as well as an artistic masterpiece.

 

Buyers perceive value then, if you can say own 10 commodity pieces vs. one high level art item... and I agree with them. Some guys would rather have 30 x $10k swords instead of one Tokubetsu Juyo Sadamune. This makes them happy to have a collection and that's what they want. The guy who buys the Sadamune though, neither of these guys can quite look straight at the other. The large collection guy says what a waste and a ripoff and a conjob to dump so much into "just a sword" and the guy with the Sadamune looks back and says, "how much time does that guy have to invest in oiling all that junk?" 

 

Exclusivity is something that people should be able to measure objectively. If you have a signed and dated Rai Kunitoshi you can count the others that are known in public and make some kind of decision about how relatively rare it is what you have. If you have one with a date that is earlier than written in every book going back 600 years then you might be able to make the conclusion that you have the earliest one that exists. And therein lies something special. Or if you have the one where he wrote he was 75 years old on it when he made it. That counts a lot. 

 

The same way that getting a D color diamond over an E color diamond counts a lot, but maybe the difference is lost on people who are not deeply involved in the subject matter.

 

What people are trying to do when they are going into the high end and rare items is that they are trying to set themselves criteria to decide if something is worth enjoying or owning. It is a limiter that says yes I really like that but it is not fitting what I need it to fit if I am going to own it. 

 

There are many other psychologies out there from tire kickers who just feel special when they're treated like a player, to the hunters who get a charge out of the finding and the acquiring but owning sadly sucks up his capital for the next hunt so needs to sell as often as he buys, to the remorseful buyer who immediately questions anything he buys and feels sadness and pain in ownership instead of joy. And there are the long horizon collectors who judge everything calmly and make decisions over years because they are in this for 40 and this is a pleasure to them to contemplate the purchase instead of rush in, the collector collector who enjoys owning before buying and selling so is chiefly concerned with just having what he has and enjoying it, to the art appreciator who is just infatuated with beauty and thinks about this first above everything, to the history buff who is excited because this sword connects him to some kind of past, maybe to a tangible past and real person who owned this sword and he can read about, to the investor who cares about nothing except that his exit price be higher than his entry price.

 

In truth everyone is a bit of a blend of these archetypes and they all factor in somehow to how we approach buying something. Some of course have more emphasis in one of these dimensions than in others and some of them are not so healthy to let take over your decisions. 

 

But the high end guy, it's very hard to argue against him if he wants to pursue the very best and will pay for them. As you get to the top of the sword pyramid there are fewer items to compare against. Each item starts becoming unique. 

 

How much should the Hachimonji Chogi be worth? I have seen more beautiful Chogi. But this blade is famous because someone is said to have cut a horseman in half with it (like the number 8 -> 八). It is huge and massive and the owner of that one is going to rejoice in the old story which we would have trouble believing now and that it has been well known and appreciated for such a long period of time. I had a chance to hold that blade and it feels like it could cut through a tank. But, not so pretty. 

 

So... can we plug the Hachimonji Chogi into a spreadsheet and calculate a proper value for it based on length and percentages and Sai-jo saku and so forth... nope. It is a unique object, it is an artifact and as a result, it will be a discussion between whomever owns it and whomever buys it and how they feel currently between their need to have the blade and their need to have some numbers in a bank account. 

 

Some of these items are universally desirable (or nearly so) but are not affordable. Like a guy who hauls a 10 kilo slab of gold into a village in Burma, maybe he can't get the price he wants for it from his immediate marketplace but this doesn't mean his price is necessarily too high, it is that the 10kg chunk of gold is not so liquid in his chosen market, or the entire market (you can scale that number up and as you scale the size up you will get less and less liquid no matter how big your market is). 

 

The items in question that brought up this discussion are 3 Shikkake blades and it seems that some have the perception then that one may be over priced, one under priced and I guess the other one is just right. Because there are three how can it be otherwise...

 

At the far end of the spectrum you have a combination of high supply and good quality (Omi Daijo Tadahiro is the man). With this, we get the closest we can get to the pricing models working well. There are enough around that you can price compare, condition is very similar with most blades unless it's been accidented somehow in its history. They are going to almost all be ubu and well made and you can start then plugging in these minor details and also you have so many examples around you can come to a conclusion about what "the price should be."

 

Western collectors tend to be guided by the papers very easily and in this case we have three Juyo Shikkake and I think the conclusion that they should all be the same price -or- that one is overpriced is not correct for a few reasons. 

 

For me, of the three the one I like best is the short one on Aoi because it has the nicest jigane and it appeals to me. But I know a lot of collectors who will not consider anything below 70cm. They would tell me I am a fool and flushing my money down the toilet, because the blade is not long enough to own. They would buy a longer one, for a higher price, with less visible quality in the ji. 

 

Who is wrong and who is right?

 

This is entirely subjective about what parameters are more valuable to an individual. I think the only thing that we could agree on, me and the theoretical long sword buyer, is that if I put my jigane on his long sword then it would be more expensive than either of ours. That is, the blade shifted up the exclusivity scale. It becomes progressively rarer, and in fact exponentially so, the more positive attributes you slap on a blade. 

 

Where we have many thousands of ubu zaimei Omi Daijo to choose from, just by doubling the age of the blade we end up in situations where there may be one or none. So as the blade gets older the number with positive properties plummets dramatically as you add it up. 

 

For instance the guy who neglects to buy a mumei Mitsutada because he wants a signed one, well he is going from something that is really rare (Mitsutada) to something that is almost impossible to buy (signed one, there are about 8 that may be legal to export). Now if he says too he really wants an ubu one so turns his nose up at the signed shortened ones, he's into just one blade. 

 

That blade may never be for sale during his lifetime.

 

What is its value? If it does hit the market, he's going to go oh no that one is wayyyy too expensive (implying it is overvalued by the owner). Well... it's unique. Where is the fencepost north of that blade that allows you to make the determination that this one, the only ubu one that you may buy that exists, is overpriced? 

 

It's just your gut at that point, or maybe it's just because it can't be afforded. But there is no relative means to compare that.

 

If you have the opportunity to buy the only signed Hiromitsu tachi then you are in the same boat. Ask me how much this sword is worth, ask Benson, ask other people, nobody is going to bet their life on the number that they give you. There is no fence post north of that sword. That one, is the end.

 

It is THE HIROMITSU.

 

Not only is it the only signed Hiromitsu tachi it is the only Hiromitsu daito that is universally accepted as his work.

 

That's it.

 

Done.

 

Game over.

 

Now... is that hype or fact? If someone is going to sell you a mumei Kozori tanto and tell you that this represents the finest of Nanbokucho workmanship and is a treasure that your family will cherish for generations, that is hype. 

 

If you are going to be the owner and custodian of the last Hiromitsu tachi known to man, that you are a lover of swords, and Japanese culture, and of samurai and of steel, and you will be the one human being out of the 8 or 9 billion of us that is going to be entrusted with this... well... that is at an emotional level but it's also the truth. 

 

What is it worth?

 

It can't be answered. It's priceless. Today is going to be different from yesterday and depending on which two people are going to try to do a deal it's going to be a different number. 

 

So everything is on this spectrum that has a few dimensions: From high quality and high supply Omi Daijo to commodity blades that were just self defense tools for merchants (chu-saku waks from the Edo period) to high quality low supply good old koto blades like the Yamato Juyo types of things to stuff that is a historical artifact that could be on display in any museum in the world including any in Tokyo. 

 

Where something falls into there is what Dr. Tokuno is kind of getting at when he's laying out guidelines and then warning that they don't always apply literally. You can't value an ubu zaimei Shintogo Kunimitsu in never-used condition. I can't even guess. My guess will be different from someone else's.

 

I can though tell you that you an get a nice quality Omi Daijo katana around 69cm with passable mounts for around $20k plus or minus a bit without even knowing anything more about it. 

 

Where something falls is going to determine its value, the more rare it is, the harder it is to peg because we just don't have thousands around to make a fluid marketplace and make comparison judging. The supply and demand are not balanced with a high number of transactions giving us a de-facto situation we can point at and say this is it or it's wrong. 

 

So these Shikkake blades, I don't see anything about them that says they are out of whack. I can't say one is cheap or one is expensive they are what they are. Though the papers are the same and the school attribution is the same, they are almost certainly made by three different guys at three different times with three different skill levels and they are in three different types of condition. What is more appealing to one may be less appealing to another and as such they're just in a range that seems appropriate and any individual has an opportunity then to pick the one that presents the best value to them personally. 

 

There have been better ones in a lot of ways and there have been worse ones. More expensive ones and cheaper ones. It's all a reason why everyone should study and learn and handle as many good swords as possible and then buy based on both objective and subjective criteria. You need absolutely to buy one that makes you happy to have and there is no price that you can put on that. It's better to pay a little more than you might like to have the one that makes you thrilled every day then to save 10% and have one that you hate and regret. Pay a little more and have one that has a shot at papering higher than one that probably doesn't deserve the papers it has and wouldn't get them today... because then that is a simple valuation proposition that anyone can understand. If all things are equal, get the longer one. If length is equal get the one with better jigane. If jigane is equal get the one with better hamon. If you like them both and everything is identical then get the cheaper one or pay a bit more and get the one with koshirae.

 

Dr. Tokuno's work is really good and is something that people should try to internalize. Similar statements have been said to me, "Katana, samurai. Tanto, samurai. Wakizashi, businessman." That helps sort out why things are how they are. Past that the subjective stuff will guide how much it's worth to *you* as well as objective stuff like history and koshirae and provenance and reputation of the smith being a bit different in practice from how it's in the books, but even so everyone needs to value how much that means to them. A lot don't give a damn about the history they want the best blade. Some do not care if it's a fake signature and will never paper because the sword came with some story. Who is right and who is wrong? There is no absolute answer to that, there is just the side that you tend to agree with. And those differences of opinion are what sets the demand side of the supply and demand and ultimately affects the market price.

 

But because one guy doesn't care about something doesn't mean that the next won't: so what appears over valued or under valued is often a matter of perspective and perception. 

 

Some of that we see working out on a daily basis as dealers in Japan actively destroy koshirae to remove the kodogu and put them in boxes. It's because fittings collectors and sword collectors come at this with different perspectives. The fittings collector devalues the sword and the sword collector devalues the fittings. Both groups view it to some degree as a "nice to have" to have the complimentary part there.

 

The result?

 

High end koshirae is often empty and high end swords have no koshirae or poor koshirae.

 

I just saw some fittings that were taken off of a koshirae for a Juyo blade, they were very high end old work. The dealer said, "too good for the sword." A Juyo sword! What he was saying really is if he leave it together a fittings collector won't buy it at all, and a sword collector will pay for the sword then mentally add about $5k in his head as a buffer in which he will accept the fittings.

 

The solution is to shred the koshirae, put the fittings in a box, sell them for top dollar to a fittings collector who wants his stuff in boxes, take some other low class fittings that the fittings guy won't buy, put them onto the koshirae to drop its value, return the koshirae to the sword now with low end stuff on it. As a result you max the value of all the items and take advantage of the different perspectives of these two groups. Now you have a 60% return vs. where you were starting out with them together, plus you got ride of some unsaleable junk.

 

It is... heartbreaking. 

 

And every day it makes any sword that is both a high end sword and has high end koshirae that much more rare. And so more valuable. But it requires a bit of education so that people understand the situation. Not hype. 

 

I have examples now where I can look back and see what has been done to some blades. I see a solid gold two piece high quality Aoi mon habaki ... and then it has a zoo of mismatched low quality fittings. On a black lacquer saya. Well... this probably had something like Yoshioka school menuki, kogai and kozuka that matched the habaki in quality and style... they got ripped off and put in a box, and then all this other stuff mounted up in its place. 

 

All of that because if one guy paid the value that the fittings guy saw in the fittings, plus paid what the sword guy sees in the sword, and bought it as a set for the value of the parts BOTH GROUPS would tell him he overpaid. For different reasons. But he would be using the fittings guy's knowledge and experience to judge the fittings and the sword guy's knowledge and experience to judge the sword. 

 

So really... it is not a very straight forward thing when it comes to that really simple question of, "What is it worth?"

 

My own opinion is always that people should try to consolidate, to have fewer and better things, go vertical instead of horizontal and that every bonus to the item you are buying makes it more desirable. The more desirable, the more value, but the more value harms the liquidity (how fast you can sell it). So each person needs to make a decision about what their time horizon is (forever? one year?) and how much liquidity matters, how much owning something matters (does it bring you joy or regret) vs. having the money. Everyone will answer it differently. Ultimately though it's just better to buy the one that you really want and will STILL want after you buy it, even if it costs you a little more, though it's nicer to get it for a little less if you're lucky.

 

So these Shikkake in conclusion (this got long and I rewrote it once!), I think are just what they are. Three different Shikake, three different prices, nice for Yamato buyers because it gives them some choice and also potentially negotiating leverage if the one they want is the most expensive of the three! Bonus.

[Pete Klein]

Good evening, everyone. I would like to introduce myself to the group. My name is Pete Klein, and I am...

 

a fittings collector...sniff, wipe tear.

[Jean]

But a cute one Pete.... ROFLMAO

[Loco Al]

Welcome to Nihontoholics, Pete! Everyone say "hi" to Peter!

 

We understand that you are still a bit defensive and wary, but it took courage to show up at this meeting. We applaud you for that.

We are here for you, Pete.

 

Alan

[BIG]

Know what I like!

 

Thank You Darcy for your int. background knowlegeable Statement.

 

In here for that Kind of "Information", Once again, Great Job Darcy!

 

 

Best Regards

 

PS. Wild Bunch behaviour isn't funny at all !

[Darcy]

Jesus Christ! I thought I tended to be a bit a bit pedantic, but this just takes the cake. B. Hennick, Jesper, and five others "liked this"? Could they actually make any sense out of it? Bafflegab.

 

Alan

 

 

Alan: "Wow that post is way too long!"

 

Then goes and quotes entire post and adds 2 lines under it.... hehe.

 

Barry and anyone else who liked it found value in it. If you don't, that's up to you, but it doesn't mean that all those other members are stupid or insincere. 

 

Also, the post was wordy. It was not pedantic. But sometimes if the situation is deep and in my case I wanted to address several other posts at the same time, a lot of writing is required. For people with short attention spans there is a scrollbar and it lets them bypass the message. But if you copy and paste it right back in, you're not improving the thing you're complaining about 

 

Edit: at least you got a smaller font going!

[Brian]

Post was gone while people were writing the replies

Warning points issued, posting suspended for 12 hours. Thanks for playing Alan.

 

Brian

 

PS - Darcy's post made sense to me....I promoted it to an article which is a feature page soon to be released.

[Jussi Ekholm]

That was pretty excellent post Darcy.

 

On behalf of Strebel I can say by personal experience that I was very impressed how they treated me when I visited them. I was 17, had bit ragged look, just appeared to their store with quite limited German skills. I was not the potential buyer for their high end stock. However we had very nice discussion about nihonto in general and I checked few of their lower end swords. I'll remember how nice experience that was.

 

It will be quite easy for us Europeans to go and see that particular Juyo Shikkake in person if potentially thinking about buying a sword of that level.

[Darcy]

Another thing that people have to keep in mind is that the flexibility of two parties in parting from their advertised prices may be quite different. So there is no saying how much one of these prices is negotiable compared to the others. So it is a bit of apples and oranges unless you're in direct contact and negotiating the two. I would still go for the one I liked best and if it was more expensive than the others I'd point at the others and use it as leverage. I think any smart buyer would do the same. He can then argue his price. Somewhere in there the two would meet and the buyer will walk out with the one he wanted at a price acceptable to him... or he won't  

[estcrh]

James,

 

Wakizashi were allowed to the merchant class during Edo period, so it is not typical to samurai, then less valued.

Jean, some people here have this view, I myself have never seen any actual evidence showing the validity of this statement, do you or anyone else here know of any actual proof that wakizashi were not typical to samurai during the Edo Period, or maybe I am not quite understanding you. Are you saying that a wakizashi may have possibly have been owned by a merchant and therefore not the exclusive property of samurai as in the case of katana and longer swords.

[Jean]

Eric,

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hait%C5%8Drei_Edict

[Kronos]

I don't subscribe to wakizashi's having less value purely because they 'may of' been used by merchants. Lets not forget merchants could have Tanto as well yet they are priced higher, like-for-like than Wak's while the Daisho for samurai was enshrined in custom by that point so almost all samurai would of had one. At the end of the day if the quality is there is it not the 'art' that is desirable above all?

 

Different people have different priorities I guess as Darcy eluded to.

[Jean]

James,

 

This is only factual, that's why you can get very good wakizashi for very good price. Concerning tanto, you must be aware that their golden age is Koto and in a less measure Shinshinto. In between few were forged (roughly between 1600 and 1800). Now being a wealthy merchant what would you wear, a tooth pick or a big wakizashi which allow you to defend yourself in a better manner and which makes you look important?

 

Now, here are two good Japanese websites, I could provide easily others:

 

- http://www.iidakoendo.com/info/item/index.htm

- http://katananokura.jp/SHOP/g8081/list.html

 

Count the number of wakizashi for sale.

 

Nevertheless I do agree with you, good wakizashi are the best quality/price ratio.

[estcrh]

Eric,

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hait%C5%8Drei_Edict

Jean, the Haitōrei_Edict  was post Edo period and had to do with the abolishment of the special rights previously granted to samurai, as far as I know it has nothing to do with merchants owning wakizashi.

[Jean]

Eric,

 

I am not sure you have ever googled to get your answer

 

I just had to google to have it. Enter "first Haitorei issued in 1870" and you will get several links which should satisfy your curiosity

 

1 - End of Edo period 1868, so I maintain what I said.

 

2 - you are referring to "The Haitorei" issued in 1876 concerning samurai, there were several Edict concerning the wear of Japanese swords, the first one concerning the wear of swords by Merchants and Farmers was issued as soon as 1870.

 

Cf : Kapp, Modern Japanese Swords pp.37

[estcrh]

Eric,

 

I am not sure you have ever googled to get your answer

 

I just had to google to have it. Enter "first Haitorei issued in 1870" and you will get several links which should satisfy your curiosity

 

1 - End of Edo period 1868, so I maintain what I said.

 

2 - you are referring to "The Haitorei" issued in 1876 concerning samurai, there were several Edict concerning the wear of Japanese swords, the first one concerning the wear of swords by Merchants and Farmers was issued as soon as 1870.

 

Cf : Kapp, Modern Japanese Swords pp.37

 

Jean, Markus Sesko says that swords were banned for the "common people", in 1870, this is already well known, that common people (not just merchants) were allowed to carry swords of a certain length during the Edo period. I have never read anything that suggests that common people including merchants actually carried swords in any great numbers.

 

Alexander Takeuchi, Ph.D suggests the same thing in his esay titled "WAS CHONIN CLASS IN EDO PERIOD ALLOWED TO WEAR/CARRY SWORDS?" , he specifically addresses the matter of merchants. 

 

 

In the mid Edo period when wealthy merchants in the city of Osaka started

gaining power, some of them ordered legal length wakizashi from famous Osaka

Shinto era smiths for their personal use. Some wonder if the existence of

large number of antique wakizashi made by some of those Osaka Shinto era

smiths is an indication that those merchants either collected or regularly

wore those wakizashi. However, Nihon-to experts in Japan tend to argue that

such a practice among wealthy merchants was not historically substantiated

(see Ogasawara, 1994a).

 

.

 

 

Excerpt from Nihon-shinshinto-shi - The History of the shinshinto Era of Japanese Swords, by Markus Sesko.

 

 

And this is from S. Alexander Takeuchi, Ph.D.

 

 

WAS CHONIN CLASS IN EDO PERIOD ALLOWED TO WEAR/CARRY SWORDS?*

 

S. Alexander Takeuchi, Ph.D.

Department of Sociology

University of North Alabama

October 26, 2003

 

I. Popular Misconception About Chonin and the Swords in Feudal Japan.

 

Many Japanese swords enthusiasts in Japan and in the U.S. already know that

the only samurai class was given the privilege of wearing/carrying a pair of

dai-sho (i.e., katana and wakizashi) by the Shogunate laws in feudal Japan.

However, when it comes to what kinds of swords that chonin (i.e., commoner)

class was allowed to wear/carry, there still is a misconception widely

shared. The most popular thus well accepted misconception of the kind is

that "chonin class was not allowed to carry any swords at all." This

misconception is very plausible because in popular Kurosawa movies and TV

jidai-geki dramas, one does not see any chonin or peasants wearing a sword

of any kind. What is very misleading is that the stereotypical portrayals

of the non-samurai class citizens of feudal Japan in Edo period are in fact

rather accurate. That is, historically non-samurai class citizens of feudal

Japan in Edo period did not actually wear/carry any swords in their everyday

life - regardless of what the laws, which many of them could not read, said.

 

Then why the notion that "chonin class was not allowed to carry any swords

at all" is still a misconception when in fact that virtually no chonin class

citizens wore/carried any swords in Edo period? To understand this, one

must examine the sword control laws of feudal Japan for civilian class and

actual cultural practice of the civilian class in the past.

 

II. The Sword Regulations of Feudal Japan.

 

Feudal Japanese government issued several orders to regulate the types of

swords that are allowed to be carried by different classes of people. One

thing consistent among all these orders was the fact that chonin (i.e.,

commoners) were prohibited from wearing long swords (i.e., katana) unless

specifically given permission to do so by the government, while there was no

regulation prohibiting the commoners from carrying short swords such as

tanto.

 

However, until many years after the end of the Japanese Civil War (1600)

those old laws regarding swords were not always followed by the people. This

was partially because many of those older laws had different definitions of

katana, wakizashi and tanto in terms of their lengths. As the result, in the

beginning of the Edo period (early 1600s), there were still some chonin

class commoners and many Yakuza gangs who openly carried long wakizashi that

were virtually equivalent to prohibited katana (Iiyama, 1995; Kukubo, 1993).

 

In the mid 1600s when the Tokugawa Shogunate restored peace and order in

society, the government also issued different orders to prohibit chonin from

carrying long swords. One of such orders was "Dai-sho katana no Sumpou oyobi

touhats futsumou no Sei" [The Order Regarding Dai-sho Paired Swords and Hair

Style] issued in July, Shoho 2 (a.d.1645). This law also specified the

maximum blade length of katana to be 2 shaku 8 sun or 9 sun (= 84.84cm -

87.87cm) and wakizashi to be 1 shaku 8 sun or 9 sun (= 54.54cm - 57.57cm)

(Kokubo,1993; Ogasawara,1994b).

 

Then in March, Kanbun 8 (1668), the Tokugawa Shogunate once again issued

"Muto Rei," [No Sword Order], an executive order to firmly prohibit chonin

class from carrying any swords longer than "ko-wakizashi" (i.e., small

wakizashi) unless specifically permitted by the government (Iiyama,1995).

According "Mutou Rei," "ko-wakizashi" is a sword whose blade length is

shorter than 1 shaku 5 sun (i.e., 45.54cm). However, after seven decades

had passed since the Japanese Civil War and when the social structures of

the Tokugawa Shogunate was stabilized in the peaceful capital city of Edo,

the Shogunate amended the old executive order "Muto Rei" to add some

exceptions to the prohibition. These exceptions included the permission for

chonin to carry regular length wakizashi (but not katana) when they are

traveling or when there is a fire (Iiyama, 1995).

 

III. Actual Cultural Practice of the Chonin Class in Edo Period.

 

As seen in above, historically the feudal government of Japan tried to

control its civilian class subjects by prohibiting them from

wearing/carrying long swords (e.g., katana). In fact, due to the continuous

legal and political pressure to prohibit chonin from arming themselves, it

has since become the shared cultural norm among law abiding chonin class in

Edo period not to carry any swords other than some exceptional occasions,

despite the fact that the laws did not specifically prohibit them from

carrying relatively short "ko-wakizashi." In this sense, the most popular

misconception about chonin and swords in feudal Japan is virtually supported

in terms of the actual cultural practice among the civilian class, even

though it is not supported in terms of the judicial history of feudal Japan.

 

While most law abiding chonin seemed to have stopped carrying virtually any

swords casually (whether legally prohibited or not), carrying "ko-wakizashi"

(that were still legal) when they were traveling was not an uncommon

practice. In fact, as seen in some of the famous wood block prints or read

old story books in the late Edo period (such as Toukaido chu Hizakurige),

there are many descriptions of chonin carrying legal length "ko-wakizashi"

during their travel (Iiyama, 1995). Therefore, Suke-san and Kaku-san

characters in popular Mito Komon TV series carrying wakizashi in their

chonin disguise is not historically inaccurate.

 

IV. Wealthy Chonin and Famous Osaka Shinto Era Wakizashi.

 

In the mid Edo period when wealthy merchants in the city of Osaka started

gaining power, some of them ordered legal length wakizashi from famous Osaka

Shinto era smiths for their personal use. Some wonder if the existence of

large number of antique wakizashi made by some of those Osaka Shinto era

smiths is an indication that those merchants either collected or regularly

wore those wakizashi. However, Nihon-to experts in Japan tend to argue that

such a practice among wealthy merchants was not historically substantiated

(see Ogasawara, 1994a).

 

References:

Iiyama, Yoshiaki. (1995). "Edo jidai no tousou to fuzoku." ["The customs and

sword furnishings in the Edo period.] In Shibata, Mitsuo. Shibata Mitsuo no

Touken Handbook. [The Handbook of Japanese Swords by Mitsuo Shibata.] Pp.

120-125. Tokyo, Japan: Kogei Shuppan. ISBN4-7694-0094-2.

Kokubo, Kenichi. (1993). Zukan Tousou no Subete. [The Complete Book of the

Japanese Sword Furnishings, Illustrated.] Tokyo, Japan: Kogei Shuppan.

ISBN4-7694-0094-2.

Ogasawara, Nobuo. (1994a). Nihon-to no Kanshou Kiso Chishiki. [The

Fundamental Knowledge of Japanese Sword Appreciation.] Tokyo, Japan: Shibun

Do. ISBN4-7694-0053-5.

Ogasawara, Nobuo. (1994b). Nippon no Bijutsu 1, No. 332: Nihon-to no

Koshirae. [The Art of Japan 1, No. 332: The Koshirae of Japanese Swords.

[Jean]

Eric,

 

If I understand correctly your initial post question was:

 

Do you or anyone else know of any actual proof that wakizashi were not typical to samurai during the Edo period?

 

Undoubtedly from your last post quotes and 1870 decree: YES

 

When people outside the samurai class were allowed to own wakizashi, wakizashi stopped to be typical to samurai class.

[estcrh]

Eric,

 

If I understand correctly your initial post question was:

 

Do you or anyone else know of any actual proof that wakizashi were not typical to samurai during the Edo period?

 

Undoubtedly from your last post quotes and 1870 decree: YES

 

When people outside the samurai class were allowed to own wakizashi, wakizashi stopped to be typical to samurai class.

Jean, I think you are not understanding "typical", wakizashi were typical of samurai, they were not "exclusive", a wakizashi was a typical samurai weapon, in the many photos and prints of samurai a wakizashi was commonly worn, but unlike katana and longer swords commoners could also have owned and worn a wakizashi. 

[Jean]

My bad Eric, i did not make the difference between exclusive and typical.

 

In fact, I was referring to exclusiveness and it seems, according the ratings given by Chris, that the Japanese market has taken into account this non exclusiveness and considers wakizashi less typical of samurai than daito or tanto. This, of course, does not influence on some wakizashi qualities.

 

What would be interesting is the opinion of our Japanese members on wakizashi and their analysis on price market.

[Darcy]

Well I reported one of my Japanese contacts opinions already in six words. "Tanto samurai. Katana samurai. Wakizashi businessman." 

 

My own feeling is that the majority of wakizashi went into a non-samurai market. What someone needs to look at is the population growth in Japan and how much the samurai class grew over time. I think the samurai as a proportion of the population was something that was falling, and with wealth growing in the hands of private citizens so goes the market. I have nothing to back this up. 

[Kronos]

The population demographics of Japan throughout most of the Edo period was 10-12% Samurai and nobility, 80-82% farmers & peasantry, 5-6% merchants and artisans. Considering it was customary for practically all Samurai to own a daisho and the merchants were only half their number (not even the merchants, thats including all artisans as well) then it's quite preposterous to assume even 1/3 of all waks extant today dating from the 1600's onwards were owned by anyone other than samurai.

 

If you take a look at Edo, the population in 1720 was 1.4m out of which 500,000 were samurai so it's pretty safe to assume most waks produced in Edo around that time would of been for samurai. The whole waks = merchants thing seems to be a bit of a myth alhough there may be other reasons as to why they're so undesirable.

 

The other alternative is the farmers were buying a load as well...

 

Source: Mikio Sumiya and Foji Taira, An Outline of Japanese Economic History, 1603-1940

[cabowen]

No doubt there were those other than samurai who owned wakizashi. How many? I would suspect the truth is somewhere in between very few and many. Regardless, there is the perception that many wakizashi were owned by those outside the samurai class. Markets are controlled to a great extent by perceptions, thus, we see wakizashi discounted. Recognizing this can result in buying opportunities...

[estcrh]

No doubt there were those other than samurai who owned wakizashi. How many? I would suspect the truth is somewhere in between very few and many. Regardless, there is the perception that many wakizashi were owned by those outside the samurai class. Markets are controlled to a great extent by perceptions, thus, we see wakizashi discounted. Recognizing this can result in buying opportunities...

I agree that the "perception" makes for some very good buying opportunities, I feel that this is a man thing, and if women were as active in the collection of nihonto as men, smaller sized swords would be more appreciated. Since perception is not always accurate I would look to historical records, period prints and photographs are a good method to gauge the use of wakizashi.

 

I have put together what I think is the worlds largest gallery of samurai related photographs, when browsing through the photos of samurai wearing swords you can see both tanto and wakizashi being worn. I can not remember any old Japanese photographs showing commoners wearing swords but there should be some, maybe another forum member has some to show. Likewise I know there must be some samurai related print galleries were the types of swords being worn can be seen. 

 

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/samurai-photographs/

 

 

 

 

[Guido]

What I've been taught (in Japan):

 

It takes a lot of skill to achieve a consistent and flawless hada and hamon on a long sword.

 

It takes a lot of skill to achieve a balanced hada and hamon on a tantō.

 

It takes less skill to make a wakizashi, since it's less difficult to achieve a consistent and flawless hada and hamon on a shorter blade as compared to katana / tachi, and there are no space restrictions as compared to tantō.

 

I've heard the reasoning "wakizashi = commoner" for the first time outside of Japan, although I can't rule out that some Japanese collectors think the same way. In any case, it doesn't make much sense, because samurai wore a daishō, of which one blade is usually a wakizashi. To my knowledge, there are not significantly more wakizashi in collections and on the market than katana.

[Markus]

Sorry for being late and rehashing this thread but a reader of mine brought it to my attention as being quoted So my opinion on this matter is as follows:

 

The vast majority of Edo-period wakizashi that is going round is of course going back to former wearers of them from the bushi class (-> daishô as part of the official “samurai uniform” if you want to put it that way). As James C. pointed out and just on a quantitative basis, there is IMHO no much arguing about that, i.e. who was allowed and expected to wear swords in general and wakizashi in particular. But I think the whole “merchant wakizashi clientele” issue can be narrowed down to blades that come close to 2 shaku, the border that separatet ruling class from civilians, and to blades by renowned master smiths. No merchant was walking around town with his long wakizashi thrusted through the belt pretending to be a samurai. It was IMHO all about power. I wrote an article a few years ago about the sword prices of newly ordered sword, the then shinsakutô, and most of the upper league shintô blades that we collect today (e.g. Inoue Shinkai, Hizen Tadayoshi) were just out of range for any middle class samurai. When I mention power, imagine the following: A fief was going to plan budgeting for the coming year, and as many of the smaller fiefs were about to face first financial problems soon (we are talking about the latter half of the 17th century), they were sending their man for this matter to Ôsaka or Sakai to discuss loans and interests. So this samurai is starting to discuss things for his fief and the (for him) exorbitant rich broker steers the conversation round to swords (smalltalk and so on before doing business), asking the poor guy what swords he is wearing. Now he says he has a mumei Sue-Seki katana and a newly made wakizashi from Doi Shinryo. And now the broker tells him how nice his swords are but also that he just got five brand new wakizashi delivered from Shinryo’s master, Inoue Shinkai, pulling one of them out of the drawer that is an exceptional masterwork and that is by no means ever affordable by the “conversation partner.” So in my opinion, this was as mentioned a power thing, showing the bushi class how far some of the merchants and rice brokers came, i.e. to “I don’t care, I can order katana and tachi from that smith whatever, just “your” regulations don’t allow me.” Of course there were also some connoisseurs who were really into swords and collected them as pieces of art.

 

In short and repeating myself, this merchant wakizashi approach concerns IMHO first and foremost close-to-katana-size wakizashi of the greatest master smiths of their time and not the majority of wakizashi made throughout the Edo period.

[Guido]

Interesting theory that makes a lot of sense. Come to think of it, most extremely luxurious koshirae – like the jūyō tōsōgu one with solid gold fittings (including the tsuba!) that I saw a few years ago at the DTI – were indeed made for wakizashi on the long side.

[Brian]

Solid gold tsuba?

 

Brian

[Guido]

Yup. Didn't dare to ask how much it was. The gold content alone put it way out of my price range ...

[cabowen]

Interesting.

 

I think it important to also remember that the average height of the Japanese has increased markedly over the past 100 years. Many swords just under 2 shaku were just as likely to be used by samurai who were smaller in stature as a practical matter. Even in WWII we see many gunto made right around 2 shaku.

 

I would think a good place to get some actual data on this would be to look into the records of sword production said to still survive. Perhaps in the records of the Tadayoshi/Hizen Daimyo or some shinshinto smiths there exists details about who the swords were ordered for, specifically.

 

We do know the economic fortunes of the ruling class deteriorated as the Edo era ran its course, with samurai became more and more indebted. As a result, we also know that swords were sold, pawned, etc. No doubt wakizashi formerly ordered by samurai ended up in merchant hands as time advanced.

 

We also know that Daimyo and the upper levels of the samurai class were indeed able to afford wakizashi and kodogu by the top artists of the Edo period.

 

Thus, it is quite uncertain when it comes to many wakizashi to determine exactly who owned and wore them through time. This is what the price differential addresses- the uncertainty. WIth daito, there isn't this uncertainty- daito were exclusive to the ruling class. There is no conjecture, no theory, no doubt.