Juyo Shikkake In Germany

[BIG]

Hi all,

 

Member Mr. Strebel Sells a Juyo Shikkake school tachi, nice item too

 

http://www.juwelier-strebel.de/asien-kunst/Japan/katana.html

 

 

Best Regards

[BIG]

Sorry,

 

it's item number 669

 

 

Best Regards

[Jean]

Expensive Peter, compared to Aoi Art's ones.

[leo]

Jean, if you compare apples to pears you may be right.

The Aoi-Shikkake-blade is not only shorter, but also has plenty of faults. Even the nice mounts cannot compensate this. If you in addition consider the VAT and tax, the prices are not that far apart.

 

Best, Martin

[Kronos]

Does size really matter?

[Loco Al]

There are two Juyo Shikkake swords presently for sale on Aoi Art:

 

One is the shorter blade with the koshirae. http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-shikkake-nbthk-36th-juyo-token

 

The other one is in the auction section. It is 69cm and does not come with fittings. http://www.aoijapan.com/katana-mumei-shikkake-school37th-nbthk-juyo-paper

 

I think that it is difficult to compare the condition of Aoi's Shikkakes to Mr. Strebel's Shikkake because of the different style of photographs provided. I suspect that if Mr. Strebel's blade were photographed (or scanned) the same way that Aoi Art does theirs, then you might see similar small imperfections. Those large full-length scans show off every little imperfection and detail in the hada. Otherwise, it's not a fair comparison.

 

Alan

[cabowen]

Does size really matter?

 

Generally speaking, all other things equal, blades of josun (2 shaku 3 sun) and longer are valued higher than those less than josun. See for example Tokuno sensei's Toko Taikan, wherein he states that for valuation, swords of 2 shaku 3 sun to 2 shaku 5 sun are valued (assuming excellent work, ubu, etc.) at 100%, swords longer are worth less (impractical to use, costly to polish, etc.), as are katana shorter than josun. Wakizashi are broken down into long, short, hira-zukuri, etc., and valued at a percentage of 100%. The same with tanto and naginata, etc.

[Jean]

Martin, I was talking about the one at 2,4M¥, VAT included (5%) it amounts to 19K€, no taxes on Antiques. Strebels' pictures are far from Aoi Art' quality ones, so it's difficult to judge this blade, but we are talking about 19k€ vs 26k€ + packing, handling and transportation.

[Kronos]

Generally speaking, all other things equal, blades of josun (2 shaku 3 sun) and longer are valued higher than those less than josun. See for example Tokuno sensei's Toko Taikan, wherein he states that for valuation, swords of 2 shaku 3 sun to 2 shaku 5 sun are valued (assuming excellent work, ubu, etc.) at 100%, swords longer are worth less (impractical to use, costly to polish, etc.), as are katana shorter than josun. Wakizashi are broken down into long, short, hira-zukuri, etc., and valued at a percentage of 100%. The same with tanto and naginata, etc.

 

Sorry to  take this off topic but I'd love to hear more about how length effects prices (feel free to PM me if you ever have time) as it's rather strange with Tanto being worth more than Wak's and then all the other intricacies such as western collectors favouring longer blades (over 78cm) and that driving the price of them up. It would make a very good article for the article section if anyone with more knowledge than myself had the inclination to write it.

[Jean]

James,

 

Wakizashi were allowed to the merchant class during Edo period, so it is not typical to samurai, then less valued. Tanto are mainly Koto or Shinshinto, dating of waring period when they reached their quality pic, you find the 3 greatest tanto makers in Koto times.

 

Now I don't know if you have ever practiced Iai. The sword length is function of your morphology. People were not very tall in the old times so often you will find swords between 66cm to 70cm, adapted to battle. Nowadays people are taller and prefer longer swords and in the Western countries it is always a matter of "who has the longest". Over my five Gokaden swords, 3 are measuring around 66cm nagasa (o suriage), o2 are around 70cm.

[Kronos]

Agreed Jean, there are some exceptions that can be a little confusing however. Take an Ubu Nanbokucho Wakizashi for example and other strange things that don't fit.

 

I've never practiced Iai but being 6'7" I'd need a behemoth of a sword

[cabowen]

Briefly, Tokuno sensei states that he places a value of 100% on katana which are ubu, zaimei, with a genuine signature, of excellent quality and condition, and of length 2 shaku 3 sun to 2 shaku 5 sun.

 

1. Katana around 2 shaku 1 sun, plus or minus, are worth 70% unless they are sue Bizen katate-uchigatana, which are normally about 2 shaku 2 sun.

 

2. Long wakizashi (1 shaku 8 sun to 2 shaku) are valued at 40% to 70%.

 

3. Medium wakizashi (1 shaku 5 sun to 1 shaku 7 sun) are valued at 30% to 50%.

 

4. Hira-zukuri ko-wakizashi (1 shaku to 1 shaku 4 sun) are valued at 40% to 60%.

 

5. Tanto (less than 1 shaku) are valued at 30% to 60%.

 

6. Yari and Naginata are valued at 20% to 50%.

 

7. Blades with non-typical sugata are valued at 50% to 80%.

 

Further, he states that before the war, swords longer than 2 shaku 6 sun were valued at wakizashi levels because they were impractical for use, expensive and difficult to polish, etc. Presently, since swords are now appreciated rather than used, this no longer holds true.

 

He also mentions that each sword must be appraised individually and that his prices are just a general guide.

 

As Jean has touched on, I think it is clear that more value is placed on blades that were most likely actually carried and/or used by samurai, not the merchant class.

[Loco Al]

Chris,

 

It would have been helpful if you were to have included the converted values in centimeters for those old shakkanhō units of measure.

You might be quite familiar with it, but I suspect that most of us are not.

 

Alan

[cabowen]

Try here

 

I have to leave some of the fun for others....

[Kronos]

It's basically 30cm, 3cm, 0.3cm and a little change so easy to work out rough estimates and add a little.

[Tokaido]

Martin, I was talking about the one at 2,4M¥, VAT included (5%) it amounts to 19K€, no taxes on Antiques. Strebels' pictures are far from Aoi Art' quality ones, so it's difficult to judge this blade, but we are talking about 19k€ vs 26k€ + packing, handling and transportation.

Hello Jean,

you are lucky in France!

In Germany you have to pay 19% VAT plus 3% customs fee on any antique sword imported from Japan

 

Greetings

Andreas

 

 

BTW:

the scans of the juyo paper are to small for me to see clearely, but the boshi looks quite close to the edge on the Strebel katana and lacking hakkikake. But that maybe only the result of my bad eyes and the small blurry picture provided.

[Brian]

Hardly think it fair comparing any sword prices outside of Japan with those of a place like Aoi. It all depends on where you are, the number of available swords and the market. Swords in SA fetch more than in the US, as do those in the UK by quite a bit. There are less available, and more expenses such as shipping and duties.
There are literally tons of swords available in Japan, and with dealer auctions, some are dirt cheap. Swords in Europe have a far smaller market and need more markup to sustain a business.

I don't think comparing is fair at all, and we should not focus on pricing when discussing these.

 

Brian

[Jean]

You are right Brian but you can find very affordable swords in Europe, most unpapered. I have noticed that swords coming from German private collections were expensive, now I know why.

[BIG]

All about ...

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/Study%20of%20a%20Juyo%20Blade.pdf

 

 

Best Regards

[Jean]

I know this sword. It was sold by Andy Q. to a dear member friend who wrote this article. In fact, Paul is a very thorough guy who has often written after a lot of research on the swords he bought. You will find very interesting articles by him in the Articles Section.

[BIG]

Yes thanks for that Tip Jean.

 

But, I am sorry Brian, do Not agree that Master Strebels margin ( >3000 € ?) Results an extortionate Price

 

to make the private German market MORE expensive than Other european markets. Never Heard before,

 

what does our well known Dealers think about?

 

 

Best Regards

[paulb]

I am not a dealer but have sold a good number of swords in recent years (maybe that makes me a sort of dealer) for friends. We can all spend a lot of time arguing whether something is a good buy, over priced or whatever, but the fact is there are no price lists in this field. The ultimate decision as to whether something is worth what is being asked is if someone buys it. The buyer must therefore be convinced what he (or she) was buying was at an acceptable price and good value

If it remains unsold it would be reasonable to assume the seller was being over optimnistic with their pricing.

As always something is only worth what a buyer is.willing to pay.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Thank you Peter for initiating this interesting topic, and for Jean, Chris and Paul for adding interesting contexts.  While there are many undiscussed factors that can really twist those relative price determinants of shape types and lengths, I always found it interesting in the "old days" when US shows were full of Japanese dealer, how quickly the measuring tape would come out at the start of things. It seems crude, but obviously it was very important to them.

 Arnold F.

[cabowen]

No doubt Arnold, length matters!

 

It definitely matters when it comes to Taisho/early Showa swords. Anything josun in length or longer is rare and much more desirable as in many cases it signifies a blade made to order and not for the military. Often these longer Showa period blades were made for connoisseurs, dedications, prizes, etc. and are the smith's best work.

[Loco Al]

Hello Jean,

you are lucky in France!

In Germany you have to pay 19% VAT plus 3% customs fee on any antique sword imported from Japan

 

Greetings

Andreas

 

 

BTW:

the scans of the juyo paper are to small for me to see clearely, but the boshi looks quite close to the edge on the Strebel katana and lacking hakkikake. But that maybe only the result of my bad eyes and the small blurry picture provided.

This straying off topic, but just an observation: Looking at the pictures on Strebel's website, that is a pretty fancy shop he has. The bulk of his business is in jewellery and Uhren (watches), I suspect. His swords are probably a niche thing on the side. I am sure that his overhead is considerable with such a fancy shop, and this would have to be passed on in the markup of items for sale.

 

If he were to sell a sword to someone outside of Germany, then surely the VAT would be refundable. Either the buyer would be able to claim it back, or Mr. Strebel would claim it back and would be able to offer the sword to the foreign buyer at the correspondingly reduced price (exclusive of VAT). As a foreigner, if you bought the sword in his store (in person), then you would be able to submit a claim for the VAT after you took it out of Germany.

 

Alan

[AndyMcK]

Off-topic and following the last post, we have VAT 24% + 22 % on item/postage fees.

 

And Alan is right on VAT refunds if the item goes out of European Union.

 

Antti

[leo]

Brian, maybe you are right. No use to compare prices without holding the blade in hand. Besides the very different taxation in the various countries make a big diference(Germany 19%).

 

Jean, this actually means the price of the sword in question contains about 5.000,-€ VAT, which can be refunded for export, apart from additional discount by the proprietor .

 

For German collectors and dealers I would like to add one interesting thing:

I mentioned 2% Customs fee. Now I am well aware that there is no customs fee on antiques. Still, my invoices explicitly do not bear the remark "Antiques".  The reason is the handling procedure of German customs.

If they see "Antiques" on the attached invoice of an expensive item, they automatically suspect that somebody is trying to cheat. Now the merchandise resides for quite a while in the crude hands of sometimes very ignorant people, who try to find out if this is really an antique item.

 

Sometimes, on my expense, an "expert" of the Frankfurt Chamber of Commerce has to certify its age. All this might take weeks and if you ever received a TH blade with etched in fingerprints or a JT blade with a broken tip, you rather pay the "penalty tax" and the merchandise is directly delivered to your hometown customs office without delay and damage.

 

It is sad, but a summary of 40 years of import experience!

 

Chris, by the way, this lecture about sword length valuation was very interesting, thank you.

 

Best, Martin

[Brian]

Thanks for clarifying Martin, and agree with you 100%.

I will not allow further pricing commentary in threads like this, as it is not fair to compare different countries and the price of swords. It is like wondering why swords in the UK cost more than a comparable one in the USA, or one at Choshuya Ginza costs more than one at the Japanese dealer auction.

The price is what someone will pay. If it is expensive, it sits. If it is a good price, it sells.

One thing I have noticed in this hobby is that there is a group of buyers for whom price is not a consideration, and they buy based on service or tradition. That is why Sotheby's and Christies still sell so many items in spite of the fact that far better deals can be had from dealers. Some ppl just prefer to buy there.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Interesting Martin, but VAT is not refundable for European Union members.

[Loco Al]

Thanks for clarifying Martin, and agree with you 100%.

I will not allow further pricing commentary in threads like this, as it is not fair to compare different countries and the price of swords. It is like wondering why swords in the UK cost more than a comparable one in the USA, or one at Choshuya Ginza costs more than one at the Japanese dealer auction.

The price is what someone will pay. If it is expensive, it sits. If it is a good price, it sells.

One thing I have noticed in this hobby is that there is a group of buyers for whom price is not a consideration, and they buy based on service or tradition. That is why Sotheby's and Christies still sell so many items in spite of the fact that far better deals can be had from dealers. Some ppl just prefer to buy there.

 

Brian

If it is not fair to discuss price differences between different countries in "threads such as this", then where is it appropriate to bring up such a discussion? Should one start a new topic in the General Nihonto section, or is this just a touchy subject that is considered to be generally verboten on the NMB?

 

This is a multinational community of nihonto enthusiasts, and I would think that this is a topic that should naturally be of interest to all members. The well informed buyer would naturally want to ensure that he is getting value for money, and should be careful to compare prices for similar swords across the market. If one finds a desirable sword in a particular country which (after having accounted for differences in country specific taxes and shipping rates) still seems expensive, then perhaps it is too expensive. What this eventually boils down to, is that some dealers may be charging a substantial premium on their goods for various reasons. If members aren't permitted to discuss price differences and gross aberrations openly in this forum, then they have to do it privately. If they are not well connected, then that may be difficult. After all, most dealers are not willing to discuss or comment on the prices of their competitors swords.

 

You said that "there are a group of buyers for whom price is not a consideration, and they are based on service or tradition." Those types of buyers, I suspect, must be a relatively privileged few for whom a $100,000 sword is chump change. They likely fall into one of two categories: 1. Knowledgeable, knows what he wants, but blessed with so much money that it doesn't matter if it is overpriced. 2. Naïve, but trusting. Buying into the hype provided by a dealer about sword "A", and made to believe that it is the pick of the litter and very exclusive. He's flattered and encouraged to return. As with type 1., he has so much money that it never occurs to him to seek other expert opinions about his recent acquisition. He will only find out the hard truth when it comes time to sell his sword, and no one wants to pay anything close to what he paid for it originally.

 

Lastly: Of course there would be a difference between the prices at a dealers' auction and at Choshuya Ginza. Wholesale vs retail price in a shop that has much overhead.

 

Alan