Habaki Material Over The Ages

[Davis]

Hi Eric

Getting back to your original post "materials used for habaki through the ages."

 

I've often marvelled at the workmanship that goes into the making of habaki and would like to learn more on the subject myself.

 

The majority of swords  I have encountered have had habaki made from copper.  I have also handled and owned swords with solid silver habaki but they have been few and far between.  Usually they have been mounted on very good shinshinto blades.

 

I'm posting pictures of two solid silver habaki, one solid brass and one double habaki, silver wrapped over copper. Perhaps other members could post pictures of habaki on swords they have and give details as to materials used, design and classification.

Regards

Mick

[Davis]

Here they are!

[lool123]

Those look really nice. The brass one isn't an original habaki on a nihonto, is it though? A modern one in so case, because as i've learnt it, brass wasn't used in the old days, only on modern swords (Made in china swords, i don't know if they're used on modern nihonto as well, are they?) because brass can be drop-forged, while that's extremely difficult with for instance copper...

 

I'll also post a couple pics of my habaki just to clear up the whole misunderstanding about rainbowing (which most likely was because of the isopropynol alcohol)

 

http://puu.sh/fMkH3/1b9929be30.jpg

 

http://puu.sh/fMkJ1/cdfc5da1d3.jpg

[Dr Fox]

Eric I love it, "google how to make a shirasaya".

Hope you have better luck than I did, when I googled "How to fly a Boeing 747" disappointingly it did not make me a pilot.     

[lool123]

Hehe, i barely picked up on the sarcasm there

 

I have no intention of becoming anything close to a saya-maker, i just want to use the opportunity to try and make a shirasaya for myself. It'll probably take a few attempts before i make something i'll be pleased with and i can leave my sword in with a good conscience, but i wouldn't gain experience otherwise.

 

Besides, i did tr and google "how to make a shirasaya" and the results there were decent for pointers on how to make the basic shape, outline the sword, carve it out, and so forth, the rest i'd have to improvise and get a feel of. If my blade sits well, rests well, and slides in and out on it's back without touching the saya with anything besides it's back, the saya's made of the right wood, and the outer shape of the shirasaya looks good, i would think i'd done a good job for a novice and that my blade will rest well in it.

[Dr Fox]

Eric

 

Sarcasm? Perhaps, but just a pointer towards your stated endevour.

 

Quote "I have no intention of becoming anything close to a saya-maker"

Then you won't produce a 'shira saya' fitted for purpose.

 

You describe what a saya should do, but achieving that goal is easier said then done.  

I have seen many examples of 'good jobs by novices'. 

 

​It is incumbent on us as keepers, not to do anything, to cause ill effect to items in our care.

 

Wish you the best in your attempts.

[bubba-san]

If you can find some, try southern magnolia which is a close relative to Japanese honika wood . As far as copper against steel ...

 

There is a chemical reaction between 2 dissimilar metals , its called galvanic action. It occurs when 2 metals that are

different that come in contact with each other . If a small amount of heat is applied it creates an electrical charge that can corrode metal.

 

It's basically is a thermocouple and you know what happens to them on your furnace from time to time . It can happen if a

sword is left in sunshine or near some heat source .Its one of the 7 different ways to produce electricity. I don't know how many habaki I have seen that are practically welded on the sword .

 

Moisture can have a chemical effect also . Its what makes some automobiles rust at the weld lines when

different metals are used for the weld , called an incompatible weld. Crude thermocouple

 

Rainbowing of Habaki can also be caused by heat.

I heat treat copper and brass shibu silver . Even heating steel will cause metal trace elements to change color .

very similar to heat treating precious stones and even rocks. Maybe the sword was exposed to heat ??

 

In that case it may spell doom for the Hamon ??

 

The previous poster mentioned a 400 year old sword normally does not have 400 year old habaki correct, they wear out.

 

James

[lool123]

Eric

 

Sarcasm? Perhaps, but just a pointer towards your stated endevour.

 

Quote "I have no intention of becoming anything close to a saya-maker"

Then you won't produce a 'shira saya' fitted for purpose.

 

You describe what a saya should do, but achieving that goal is easier said then done.  

I have seen many examples of 'good jobs by novices'. 

 

​It is incumbent on us as keepers, not to do anything, to cause ill effect to items in our care.

 

Wish you the best in your attempts.

 

I didn't say this in my previous post, but everything i said was directed towards this point, "I won't use a subpar saya to store my blade, it has to look right, fit right, and feel right, only then would i actually use it, otherwise i'd try again untill i have one that wouldn't cause any ill effects on my blade."

 

Bubba-san, i didn't realize it was that bad between copper and carbon steel... Though i suppose it could be possible for the copper to "weld" itself against the steel over a long time span, despite the galvanic action only producing a few millivolts at most...

[bubba-san]

A few volts is all it takes when you are speaking about hundreds of years. As Far as cutting a shirasaya , you will never learn unless

you try , heck you might be really good at it with practice .(Koketsu ni irazunba koji wo ezu) Literally: If you do not enter the tiger's cave, you will not catch its cub. good luck on your work. James

[Davis]

Hi Eric

For what it's worth.  The brass habaki was on a very good sword that I once owned.  It was acquired by an American Colonel in Japan c.1945.  The Colonel was subsequently based in England and passed the sword to a friend of mine in the 1960's.  The friend passed the sword to me 27 years ago.  It wasn't Chinese.  Unfortunately, the only photos I now have don't show the quality of this fine blade. This picture though might give you some idea.

Mick

[lool123]

Hi, Davis,

 

I didn't mean to criticize the habaki or the swords it's been on if i may have sounded that way, i just, in my inexperiencedness and indelicate way of raising questions, wondering about the brass habaki on a real nihonto, as i know that brass is pretty much the only thing being used on made-in-china swords because it's easy and cheap... Although i suppose back in 1945 they should have had the knowledge to drop-forge brass, so it being used on real nihonto isn't too far fetched.

[Curran]

If you can find some, try southern magnolia which is a close relative to Japanese honika wood . As far as copper against steel ...

 

Thought it was practically the same. Long been said that the Japanese own most of the southern magnolia stockpiles. Has that changed?

Only thing the Japanese wanted out of Georgia while I was growing up there.

 

If dabbling at sayashi work, common sense says start with a beater blade and stick to that for at least your first 15 or 20 tries. Definitely its own artform.

I have an Omiya Morokage where the saya is as much a bit of art as the sword, and better workmanship than the various saya on the juyo swords I have owned.

[bubba-san]

I have a source for southern magnolia . He sells boards that are 1" x 4" x 4 FT long   I buy 2 boards at a time . I will look for the email  address . They are  near Atlanta

 

  Used to buy it from a fellow in texas  Ben Chrysler  not sure if last name is spelled correctly .But , he passed away last year.

 

Although some folks do not realize it but, shibuichi  metallurgical  speaking it is a type of Brass . Hard to work but I love it .  

 

I can make some in 1"x 4" strips  from 1/8" to 1/4" thick . I n order to work it you have to anneal anneal anneal   each time you make a bend or it will crack .

 

Brass is very durable much more than copper although it doesn;t look as good in my opinion. I n fact they make machine bearings from brass.

 

 Habaki making is not an easy proposition , it took me about 2 years before I could make a decent one ........  Good luck   James

[lool123]

I think obtaining Magnolia would be just as difficult as obtaining honoki around here.

 

Thank for your help though, guys. It was a pleasure chatting with you all. When i do get around to making a shirasaya i'll post some pictures.

 

Best Regards,

Eric

[bubba-san]

Not difficult at all to find ....  Here are some sources depending where you live...

 

http://www.industrynet.com/search.asp?headers=LU0260,+LU0280,+LU0325,+LU0350,+LU0355,+LU0266,+LU0267,+LU0268,+LU0270,+LU0320,+LU0323,+LU0327,+LU0333,+LU0336,+LU0340,+LU0351,+LU0353,+LU0354,+LU0365,+PA0671

[Geraint]

Hi All.

To return once again to the original topic I have finally found the sources I was referring to for an Iron habaki.  It featured in the Lazarnick collection sold by Sotheby's in 2000.

The reference to Sasano gives,

 

" In fact, the delicate iron habaki sometimes seen today and originally attached to tachi blades of these periods are extremely thin and resemble the Ko-tosho guards shown in this book.  Possibly the thinness of the metal was a result of attempts to forge very keen blades.  Furthermore, the quality of the iron in both the habaki and guards is very good and reminds one of the metal employed in both blades and tangs (nakago) of the same period.  This seems to indicate that the swordsmiths used metal left over from the blade in the manufacture of mountings, and the similarities i appearance and material between guards and habaki suggest that the same swordsmiths used both."

 

All the best