Hoki No Kami Fujiwara Nobutaka

1tallsword · February 4, 2015

Hey Folks. Just scored This fine wakizashi. Thought I would share for your enjoyment and discussion. It is believed to be either a joint work of the shodai and nidai , late work of shodai .. or nidai. I feel its Nidai, but what do I know..LOL . knowing that most blades i have seen by shodai and nidai have received TH papers , I wonder how this blade will do being suriage? enjoy . ..

Kronos · February 5, 2015

1) Blades with Tokubetsu Kicho, Koshu Tokubetsu Kicho or Hozon papers with good workmanship and state of preservation can receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper, except for the following:

a. Either zaimei or mumei blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper if they are significantly tired, have kizu or repair which impairs beauty of the blade.

b. Re-tempered blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper unless they were made by famous smiths and their values are extremely high as a reference.

c. Edo period works by less famous smiths with mid or lower grade workmanship may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

d. Muromachi and Edo period mumei blades may not receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, as a rule. However, if a blade shows good workmanship, attributable to a famous smith, having ubu-nakago, and in good preservation, it may receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

e. Suriage cut-mei Edo blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

f. Blades with hagiri may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

* Among blades that received a Hozon paper in item 5 above, that may be considered the maker's best quality, these may receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

Nothing in the rules seems to state it can't receive TH and the workmanship is easily good enough for TH so it's up to the judges really. I recall seeing a 3rd gen Yasutsugu who's also Jo saku rated with TH. it was described as Ubu, Machi-Okuri but looked blatantly Suriage to me which the judges should of picked up on.

i can't find any examples of Suriage shinto work with TH at present but I'm sure they exist.

nagamaki - Franco · February 5, 2015

i can't find any examples of Suriage shinto work with TH at present but I'm sure they exist.

Quote

1) Blades with Tokubetsu Kicho, Koshu Tokubetsu Kicho or Hozon papers with good workmanship and state of preservation can receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper, except for the following:

a. Either zaimei or mumei blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper if they are significantly tired, have kizu or repair which impairs beauty of the blade.

b. Re-tempered blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper unless they were made by famous smiths and their values are extremely high as a reference.

c. Edo period works by less famous smiths with mid or lower grade workmanship may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

d. Muromachi and Edo period mumei blades may not receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, as a rule. However, if a blade shows good workmanship, attributable to a famous smith, having ubu-nakago, and in good preservation, it may receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

e. Suriage cut-mei Edo blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

f. Blades with hagiri may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

* Among blades that received a Hozon paper in item 5 above, that may be considered the maker's best quality, these may receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

1tallsword · February 5, 2015

_{thank you Franco, May Not sounds like quite a vague blanket term... seems like it may mean may not/ maybe so ... lol James brings up a good point, anyone have any documents or seen any Shinto suriage swords with TH papers ???}

Kronos · February 5, 2015

http://www.arizonaskiesmeteorites.com/Antique_Samurai_Swords_Katanas_Wakizashi/Tadayoshi_Katana/

http://www.nihontoantiques.com/fss539.htm

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2015/1510_2010syousai.htm

They all look to of been shortened by a cm or two. Unless Tadayoshi decided an Ichimonji jiri was a good idea randomly. The first TH paper looks strange though, it says Tokubetsu but looks like a hozon paper?

nagamaki - Franco · February 5, 2015

d. Muromachi and Edo period mumei blades may not receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, as a rule. However,

Sounds like exceptions can be made. And when it comes to things nihonto it seems exceptions can almost always be found.

Kronos · February 5, 2015

I guess what it means by "cut-mei" is as long as the entire mei is present then there's still a chance, but it'd need to be a Hankei or Tadayoshi even then.

1tallsword · February 5, 2015

thanks to all that tuned in. yes Franco and James I agree. sounds like so long as the quality is present and the mei is still present than it would be up to the judges discretion. cheers.

6pakki · February 13, 2015

Dear Jeremy,

What a coincident that I find you with this makers blade.

I got one "alleged" paperless Nobutaka this week and now I can compare the mei, since I think mine is a gimei.

Your blade is magnificent.

Yours truly,

1tallsword · February 14, 2015

thank you Juha for your Kind comment. Yes the blade is very well made in my opinion. maybe you should post some pics of yours in the translation section and see what the fine folks on here have to say. I believe There were 10 generations with only the first 4 generations mei this way. even though yours might not match the 1st or 2nd generation it could still be the 3rd or fourth...

cabowen · February 14, 2015

Contact Fred Geyer. I believe he owns multiple blades by each generation of Nobutaka. I would imagine he would be able to offer some valuable insight.

Jean · February 14, 2015

A few years ago, Nihontocraft had for sale a TH suriage katana signed by Shinkai's father.

1tallsword · February 14, 2015

Thank you for the good advice chris.. that is good to know Jean, and a very good Ref . thank you.

6pakki · February 16, 2015

Thank you all for your advises. I have written to Mr.Geyer and asked for his opinion.

Fred Geyer · February 18, 2015

^{what shape is the nakago mune , and better photo of the complete kissaki temper}

^Fred Geyer

Fred Geyer · February 18, 2015

I am sure this is third generation by the temper but maybe 2nd depending on the nakago mune

1tallsword · February 18, 2015

pics coming

1tallsword · February 18, 2015

Hello.. thank you Fred for tuning in. Im fairly confident its by the nidai. here are some more pics of the nakago mune and kissaki, looks Kaeri-Tsuyoshi to me. what are your thoughts Fred? thank you for your time.

nagamaki - Franco · February 18, 2015

Hello Jeremy,

Thank you for posting pics of your sword, which I have enjoyed viewing.

While I have been up all night, meaning my vision/perception may not be quite clear, I cannot help but notice that the peak of the mune is not centered or am I seeing things? And if I'm not just seeing things, it would be interesting to see and compare the center of the mune of the habaki to that of the sword to see what is going on there as well?

One reason for bringing this to attention is to note that choosing an excellent polisher especially for a good sword matters. It also matters to discipline ourselves into looking at such details as we appreciate/kantei a sword.

Thank you.

AndyMcK · February 18, 2015

Like Franco stated above thank you for the pictures, a lot better quality than my own. As a quite new collector and a resident of northern country where nihonto are still quite rare (as are the collectors) these photos folks take time to shoot and post here are valuable source of information to me and us here in Finland.

The mune caught my eye also but it might be from the direction of the light that "eats away" the peak and it might seem off-centered due to this (one of the useful things you learn from aiming with iron sights )

Hoping to see a lot more of photos here on the board and good information to learn from.

-Antti

1tallsword · February 18, 2015

hello Franco and antti, thank you both for your kind comments. You bring up a good point franco when looking at a sword it is very important to look at all points and areas, this area would certainly be over looked by some and its a great point you made to make sure to look at this area.. the picture is playing tricks as Antti pointed out, sorry for the not so great picture, here is another picture that shows the mune a little better, rest assured it is center upon in hand inspection, cheers

nagamaki - Franco · February 18, 2015

Hi Jeremy,

Funny, it still looks slightly off (to the left) in this new pic. Perhaps my astigmatism has changed and it's time to have the eyes checked.

Just out of curiosity have you actually measured or just eyeing it?

Thank you.

1tallsword · February 19, 2015

LOL.... I just put a caliper on it and its dead center.. not your eyes! just camera playing tricks, shadows dont help, neither does the tilting of the blade... anyway do you have an opinion as to what generation this is Franco ? I would love to hear your opinion on generation and supporting evidence as to why you think it might be that generation? cheers.

nagamaki - Franco · February 19, 2015

Hi Jeremy,

Ha, those angles playing tricks! Glad to to know all is good, one reason for pressing the issue is that the little things are important when it comes to nihonto. As for the ? of which generation I will be happy to do some homework to see if I can come with an opinion. However, it seems like Fred Geyer and his extensive experience is the one to seek out for details. Thank you.

1tallsword · February 19, 2015

well lets wait and see if fred tunes in again. thank you all who have taken the time to comment, cheers.

nagamaki - Franco · February 19, 2015

_{Hi Jeremy,}

_{Of interest is the following, if mine I would contact Andy Quirt to see if he still has additional images available including one of the mei for comparison.}

"The generational attribution to the nidai Nobutaka was made verbally by Yoshikawa Kentaro". http://www.nihonto.us/HOKI%20NO%20KAMI%20FUJIWARA%20NOBUTAKA%20WAKIZASHI.htm

1tallsword · February 19, 2015

funny, this is my sword, Andy sold it quite a long time ago, after that I have little history as i bought it through auction. doing some google searches i discovered this myself noticed the identical hamon and kissaki, after in hand comparison with mine and looking at the pictures of the one andy sold i quickly realized its the same sword.I called Andy before you posted this.. spoke with Andy, very nice fellow willing to help in any way he can. had a very pleasant conversation, yes it looks like it has been attributed to the nidai nobutaka by Yoshikawa Kentaro verbally in the past. at least I know some of its history now...

nagamaki - Franco · February 20, 2015

Ha, it is somewhat humorous, as I was looking at a number of posted examples I thought, gee, this sword looks awfully close and then read the nidai comment. Well, comforting to know I can put off the eye exam after all, at least for now. Yes, Andy Quirt has always been most kind in all of our dealings.

Fred Geyer · February 24, 2015

hey guys,

I think is 100% 3rd generation. The boshi is not like any 2nd generation I have seen ...will send photos when Iget home in a few weeks. Next is the shape of the nakago and how low the maru is, will send photos of 2nd ..then 3rd then a 2nd and 3rd made sword to show the difference as there is a BIG difference as 2nd worked liked 1st generation except the nakago

Fred Geyer

Brian · February 24, 2015

Thank you Fred, appreciate the lesson.

Brian

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