Uechi Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 Appears to be genuine and worth more then the purchase price ($98). Any ideas on the school?I assume mid top late EDO but I really don't know.
Ford Hallam Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 I'm afraid you appear to be the proud owner of an ebay school 'tsuba'. The bee is in fact an etched decoration. The etching process was used in the Edo period, notably by the Jakushi group and in Higo province. However, in this case the design placement and overall feel of the workmanship look essentially new to me. It actually looks like something any one of the tsubamakers on FTIB might make in a day or two.
nagamaki - Franco Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 Appears to be genuine and worth more then the purchase price ($98). No, and no. With all the museum websites and nihonto dealer websites and nihonto chat websites and nihonto information websites and nihonto books available there really is no excuse to get things like this so wrong, other than mistaking temptation for opportunity. Don't feel too bad about this, instead, turn this into something positive and take this as your initiation fee, tuition, lesson learned. The key is not to repeat the same lesson over again, keeping in mind that in addition to outright reproductions there's a lot of 'real' but 'old junk' just the same for sale out there that presents additional bumps and potholes on this path of collecting and learning. Study the good stuff.
Ford Hallam Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 Hmmm...I owe the members of my forum an apology methinks. I reckon they'd do a better job, or they'd better!
Uechi Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Posted December 15, 2014 Interesting since I have opirions from members and other sources that disagree in any event it didn't cost me a lot of money so if is in fact a phony I'm not out a lot and lesson learned
Uechi Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Posted December 15, 2014 Appears to be genuine and worth more then the purchase price ($98). No, and no. With all the museum websites and nihonto dealer websites and nihonto chat websites and nihonto information websites and nihonto books available there really is no excuse to get things like this so wrong, other than mistaking temptation for opportunity. Don't feel too bad about this, instead, turn this into something positive and take this as your initiation fee, tuition, lesson learned. The key is not to repeat the same lesson over again, keeping in mind that in addition to outright reproductions there's a lot of 'real' but 'old junk' just the same for sale out there that presents additional bumps and potholes on this path of collecting and learning. Study the good stuff. Sorry legitimate dealer said it was genuine so there you go. I'll fly it by some other sources just for the heck of it. Either way I'm not crying over a small mistake. Thanks for you inputs
Peter Bleed Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 I have to agree that this seems obviously to be a recent product. But Lots of people have turned their hand to a bit of metal working. And I think that replication is a good means of building perception and appreciation. Somebody made this and it wasn't a waste of her/his time. Look at the ishimei. He tried a couple of techniques and tools and if my reconstruction of the sequence he followed is correct (he started below the seppa-dai, which is up in the image!), he developed some skill. Notice he didn't raise the mimi til after he had done the ishimei. That strikes be as odd, but maybe it isn't. In any case, tsubas like this are going to appear on the market, so we better develop assessment skill. Peter
nagamaki - Franco Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 legitimate dealer said it was genuine so there you go. You should ask this legitimate dealer to make you an offer on it.
smicha6551 Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 Can anyone explain what signs they used to determine it's of recent make? I don't really plan on buying much (really anything) on eBay but if there are tsuba that can fool people in the industry then I'm sure I can be fooled too. I've got Uchigatana Koshirae and Art Appreciation of Japanese Sword Fittings on order from Doffin but I don't know if either has a section on identifying repros. The only thing that immediately strikes me is the appearance of the tusba just inside of the mimi where the pattern appears to be belled out and the rim itself which looks uneven. I don't know if this is "wrong" or just not to my taste though.
Uechi Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Posted December 15, 2014 Can anyone explain what signs they used to determine it's of recent make? I don't really plan on buying much (really anything) on eBay but if there are tsuba that can fool people in the industry then I'm sure I can be fooled too. I've got Uchigatana Koshirae and Art Appreciation of Japanese Sword Fittings on order from Doffin but I don't know if either has a section on identifying repros. The only thing that immediately strikes me is the appearance of the tusba just inside of the mimi where the pattern appears to be belled out and the rim itself which looks uneven. I don't know if this is "wrong" or just not to my taste though. As is apparent I'm no expert that being said it is a mistake to write off E-Bay. Lots of junk but now and then good items and if you are smart and a little lucky you can do well.
Uechi Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Posted December 15, 2014 legitimate dealer said it was genuine so there you go. You should ask this legitimate dealer to make you an offer on it. And exactly why would I do that? If he offered more then $98 would that make it real? The dealer in question is a friend and has over 25 years experience. I'm not adverse to opinions or criticism but I need more inputs before I write the tsuba off as certainly junk
Grey Doffin Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 Hi Jeffry, I don't think this is junk. To me it looks like a recently made (sometime in the 20th or 21st century), mostly by hand tsuba. But I don't find it very appealing; it has no spark. The more time you spend looking at tsuba made by competent artists, whether in hand, online, or in books, the easier it will be for you to understand that you'd rather collect better. Grey
nagamaki - Franco Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 If he offered more then $98 would that make it real? No, but if he did, take it and consider this dealer a real friend.
Uechi Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Posted December 15, 2014 Hi Jeffry,I don't think this is junk. To me it looks like a recently made (sometime in the 20th or 21st century), mostly by hand tsuba. But I don't find it very appealing; it has no spark. The more time you spend looking at tsuba made by competent artists, whether in hand, online, or in books, the easier it will be for you to understand that you'd rather collect better. Grey Grey Agree but I didn't buy for my collection. I had doubts about whether it was real or not and bought it to study. At 98 bucks I'm not out a lot. I sent photos to Bob Haynes. I'll be curious what he has to say.
Jean Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 Jeffrey, A few questions: How many tsuba have you seen? Among them, How many have you seen with a bee motive? The main problem here is to develop a sense of aesthetic and quality, Grey Is right, it is not really a $ problem. As is apparent I'm no expert that being said it is a mistake to write off E-Bay. Lots of junk but now and then good items and if you are smart and a little lucky you can do well. I am afraid that in this case you did not meet both requirements. Too meet them, you must know what you buy.
smicha6551 Posted December 15, 2014 Report Posted December 15, 2014 I didn't see any tsuba with a bee motif in any of my books, and only found three online (including one in the Walters museum). Placement of the bee is simmilar with all three (and this one) though all three looked far nicer. I wouldn't have bought this one myself (would prefer really only to buy from an established Japanese dealer in any case) but I'm still not hearing how folks are determining that it's modern second rate vs. Edo second rate, since I'm assuming there were second (third, etc.) tier craftsmen even back then?
Uechi Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Posted December 15, 2014 Jeffrey, A few questions: How many tsuba have you seen? Among them, How many have you seen with a bee motive? The main problem here is to develop a sense of aesthetic and quality, Grey Is right, it is not really a $ problem. As is apparent I'm no expert that being said it is a mistake to write off E-Bay. Lots of junk but now and then good items and if you are smart and a little lucky you can do well. I am afraid that in this case you did not meet both requirements. Too meet them, you must know what you buy. Do you know the word bugger off? If your idea of helping is telling me I'm a moron you lose. Tosogu like Nihonto is an on going learning process. Believe it or not I have purchased several items that have been evaluated by people with more knowledgeable then you or me. Tell me truly that every time you buy an item you know exactly what you are buying and I will tell you you're a liar. It is an on going learning experience and mistakes have been made. In the case of this tsuba I had doubts but it is worth the price to get all this fury over a purchase. In any event, I'm done responding to people that may know more then me but are still pseudo experts
Uechi Posted December 15, 2014 Author Report Posted December 15, 2014 Jeffrey, A few questions: How many tsuba have you seen? Among them, How many have you seen with a bee motive? The main problem here is to develop a sense of aesthetic and quality, Grey Is right, it is not really a $ problem. As is apparent I'm no expert that being said it is a mistake to write off E-Bay. Lots of junk but now and then good items and if you are smart and a little lucky you can do well. I am afraid that in this case you did not meet both requirements. Too meet them, you must know what you buy. Lots is there a magic number?
Ford Hallam Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 Bruised egos aside I think this paper is perhaps apropos. http://www.jerwood-no.org.uk/pdf/Dunning%20Kruger.pdf "In essence, we argue that the skills that engender competance in a particular domain are often the very same skills necessary to evaluate competence in that domain."
Uechi Posted December 16, 2014 Author Report Posted December 16, 2014 bruised egos aside I think this paper is perhaps apropos. http://www.jerwood-no.org.uk/pdf/Dunning%20Kruger.pdf "In essence, we argue that the skills that engender competance in a particular domain are often the very same skills necessary to evaluate competence in that domain." For whom? So people that are labeled as experts by themselves or by others are always right? I Have no problem being wrong. I've been wrong before and I will be wrong again. What I won't abide is someone that is mean spirited. There is a difference in being critical as you were and telling someone they are ignorant. So what's the point? Everybody is free to believe to comment. This turned into to a ego match over who knows what. I relent I'm stupid. I'm done with the topic. I'm finished with comments that continue to go nowhere
christianmalterre Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 Phantastic! What a really great and precious Tsuba here! Definitely worth to study it!-I wish i ever had the money so to can purchase me such an very rare object ! Mine personal experts-label: Tokubetsujuyo if not Bunkazai! (circular-logic ) Christian
nagamaki - Franco Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 FYI, Historic overview of aesthetic requirements for a tsuba http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20343&hilit=tsuba+article
Brian Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 A lot of what shows this to be modern can't be taught. People come here expecting nice little check boxes to identify their swords and fittings, and get frustrated when they do not exist. How do you teach aesthetics, placement, feel and interpretation? Yes..the signs are there since it has no mounting marks and no signs it was ever fitted to anything. The way the ground is done...the fact that the bee is just not "Japanese" The first few posts did their best to lighten the news and turn it positive. However do not mistake non-native English for rudeness. It is what it is. People who buy on auctions against advise need thick skins. Brian
Ford Hallam Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 Jeffrey I suppose the quote was directed at anyone who might be offended by it... you evidently felt qualified to make a judgement call on ebay but fell for an obvious fake. And you trusted a 'legitimate dealer' there. Some might cry at that admission...or laugh. But I think what happened here was really inevitable. You presented a piece that you clearly didn't know much about, as you wrote; "I really don't know." There really is no doubt nor lack of consensus as to what the 'tsuba' is yet you attempted to save face by citing unidentified alternative authorities. "Interesting since I have opirions (sic) from members and other sources that disagree" This is both nonsense and rude. If you cite anyone or anything in a discussion like this it's only correct to identify your source so that others can evaluate your evidence for themselves. By keeping your 'other sources' essentially secret you're telling us you're not interested in continuing the discussion with us and that we're all wrong because you have counter evidence. And to continue with; "Sorry legitimate dealer said it was genuine so there you go. I'll fly it by some other sources just for the heck of it..." When you claim the backing of a 'legitimate dealer' ...on ebay you immediately reveal your vulnerability and leave me thinking you're a sheep waiting to be fleeced. But by all means fly it by other sources, until you hear what you need to hear. Your dismissal of the input here was obviously seen as very arrogant by most people. Now you may feel that some posts were a bit blunt but frankly, as has been pointed out, there's no reason to be so gullible. It's up to you though, how you respond in the long term, to this experience. For myself, I tend to ignore members who've reacted as you did, until I see a change of heart. Getting all bent out of shape and prickly rarely leads to any good here because most of us are past masters at being awkward buggers :D BUT you won't find a more supportive and encouraging group anywhere else. edit to add: Do you know the word bugger off? If your idea of helping is telling me I'm a moron you lose. Tosogu like Nihonto is an on going learning process. Believe it or not I have purchased several items that have been evaluated by people with more knowledgeable then you or me. Tell me truly that every time you buy an item you know exactly what you are buying and I will tell you you're a liar. Jeffrey, you wrote this in reply to a perfectly reasonable post from Jean. Jean simply pointed out the obvious and he's absolutely right. You are ignorant of the subject and your behavious was moronic. You really have no idea how knowledgeable he or anyone else here is....you're the one with egg on your face. It seems to me that you're the real loser, in every sense, and it's probably best if YOU bugger off now.
Brian Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 Jeffrey asked me to remove his account, which I will decline as I have done before for others. This is because he obviously is a true enthusiast of Nihonto, has particpated meaningfully before, and has a lot to contribute. We have all made mistakes, and all have gaps in our knowledge. I know nothing about "old iron" tsuba and armour. Nothing about a lot of things. Sometimes I make mistakes. So I take my punches, and read some more, and participate in other areas. If you are wise and have the thick skin I hope you do Jeffrey, you will get over this one, drop it, and maybe carry on with other items. There are no grudges here. We get over things and carry on. One item does not a hobby make. Brian
Jean Posted December 16, 2014 Report Posted December 16, 2014 Tell me truly that every time you buy an item you know exactly what you are buying and I will tell you you're a liar. - I never called someone I don't know a moron. A moron is not someone who buys at random hoping to uncover a Jewel. - concerning the quote, I never buy an item at random not knowing what is, reason why I have only five swords. I never buy on e-bay but Glassware, Baccarat, Saint Louis, Daum
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