Odd and unusual menuki, beautiful work

[Brian]

These came to me recently on the wakizashi I got from Darcy through Ted.

Both of them agree that the menuki are very unusual, and the nanako is some of the finest I have seen (Size wise)

They are also beautifully and excellently crafted. But I have no idea of the theme, style or school. The motiffs must represent something, but nothing that I can guess at.

Does anyone have any idea or comments? They sit quite high. Darcy/Ted theorized at a possible foreign filigree influence such as that from Portugal, but I am not sure myself.

 

Brian

[Shugyosha]

Sorry, I'm no help with the menuki but I did see pictures of the blade on Ted Tenold's website and I have to say that it's truly lovely.

 

Kind regards,

[Alex A]

Interesting Brian, just scratched my head for twenty minutes, best i can come up with is something to do with Tanegashima

[sabi]

The side in the first picture reminds me of a dharmachakra; the Buddhist wheel of law. However, that is always rendered with 8 spokes, not 6.

 

The level of detail is stunning. I'm just grasping at straws in regard to the motif. Hopefully someone else knows for sure!

[Brian]

Evan,

Wow..great hint. But you are correct, looking it up it always has 8 spokes. But some of them do even have those little round "balls" so even more confused now.

So maybe they do represent something after all..just have to discover exactly what.

 

 

 

Brian

[DanC]

Did a little browsing, could be more specific to Japanese Buddhism, vs Tibetan Buddism.

http://www.Japanese-buddhism.com/buddhism-symbol-dharma-wheel.html

 

Or, I'm guessing it has something to do with Family Crests

http://imgkid.com/samurai-crest.shtml

http://chingfordgames1.homestead.com/files/rpg/TRANS_FANTASTIC_jap_clan_crests.gif

[sabi]

Yes, the ball detail and the overall wheel design are what tipped me off to head in that direction. Not sure if there are six-spoked versions of the design but i have seen ten before.

 

Not sure about the other side but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it ends up being another form of Buddhist symbol.

 

Good luck on the search! Please post an update if you're able to identify it!

[Curran]

Purely reflex based largely on the nanako: Momoyama or Early Edo Goto to me.

Initial interpretation is Buddhist Wheel of Law, as others have gotten to before me.

 

Etruscan gold wire feel to it is something we see in the 'other' Hirata school and then done later by several sources in late Edo.

Not sure what to make of that, but still feels Earliest to Early Edo to me in the photograph.

I like them.

[loiner1965]

http://www.buddhism-guide.com/buddhism/dharma_wheel.htm

[Brian]

Thanks all. So far I have had some very educated opinions here and via pm pointing me towards either Goto or Yoshioka with more of a trend towards the former. Both very encouraging.

Will update if I get new info, please keep the comments coming. That is the first page I have seen aluding to a six-spoked wheel, but no pics at all.

And the other symbol completely eludes me....can't find anything even close to it.

 

Brian

[Peter Bleed]

My first reaction to these menuki was that they were 1) very good, but 2) NOT Japanese. Interesting comments so far have made me less certain about #2 above.

The gold portion of these fittings looks like classic "gold granulation." That maybe what Curran had in mind. It involves making gold spheres and fusing them on to a decorated surface without solder. I don't think this was ever much practiced in Japan - but who knows. I could easily believe that foreign Buddhist objects could be added to menuki in Japan. That's what they look like to me.

Go back to #1 above!

Peter

[Peter Bleed]

Ahh, the joys of the NMB and the internet. I did some scouting and found this bit of Youtube

Clearly Curran was spot on in comparing it to Etruscan wire jewelry.

I don't have much on Hirado work, but I would love to see evidence that folks in Japan were doing this sort of work.

Peter

[Brian]

Interesting link Peter. I can see the similarities and it definitely has that look about it. But I'm not sure I am ready to pursue a link between Etruscan decoration and Japanese Kinko work. I am hoping someone can show something similar from a Japanese school. But this is getting very interesting anyways. Can only wonder if the Japanese had any Italian influence or inspiration when making these.

Hope Ford is able to comment on the way the gold spheres are used and applied, and if this was a Japanese technique.

 

Brian

[Tanto54]

Dear Brian,

 

The menuki with 6 pie shaped sections is surely the Buddhist or Dharma Wheel (dharmachakra) as others have noted (it can have 6, 8 or other number of sections). I believe that the other menuki is a representation of the three poisons (of ignorance, attachment, and aversion) that are often depicted in the central rings of the Wheel (notice the repetition of threes in that menuki). The poisons are the primary causes that keep sentient beings trapped in samsara and lead to the creation of karma, which, in turn, leads to rebirth in the six realms of samsara. Hopefully, one of our Buddhism experts can confirm (David S., aren't you studying Buddhism?)

[watsonmil]

Dear Brian,

I am FAR from being an expert on Menuki or Kodogu of any kind for that matter, ... but I know QUALITY when I see it. You are one very lucky man to have acquired the item pictured. If it's not too much to ask, ... when you have time post a complete photograph of the Koshira. Amazing workmanship !

... Ron Watson

[Stephen]

perhaps they were buttons brought over in the 17th cen

https://www.google.com/search?q=portugu ... 300%3B1300

[BIG]

Hi Brian,

 

here are early Edo Rinpo menuki:

 

http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/kodougu ... /k2055.htm

 

Best Regards

[jason_mazzy]

http://www.legacyswords.com/fs_ant_kogai2.htm a kogai that is dated muromachi with similar form

[Brian]

Thanks all,

Yes..lots showing Buddhist motiffs and the 8 spoke wheel. But not a single menuki in this style, with a shakudo nanako outer and decorated inner. Nothing even resembling their style. Perhaps they are signed underneath. Only way I'll know that is if i have the tsuka rewrapped oneday.

 

Brian

[Robert Mormile]

All:

 

Byzantine.

 

As we know, during Momoyama, there were many fine objects that were brought into Japan from abroad that were incorporated into arms and armor. I would be very interested to hear what Ford says about these but the gold-work doesn’t look Japanese to me although I can understand the argument for Hirata. I believe the gold-work is Byzantine and was perhaps gifted to someone important who had a very high-class early goto mount put on it. The nanako are magnificently executed. I am not a fittings specialist but this is my opinion.

 

Thank you. Robert

[Stephen]

still think they were found items (buttons) put to with that great nanako metal worker, bet its signged ...maybe someday like Brian says..

[Brian]

I think the centers are too small to have been buttons, but anything is possible. The whole menuki is only 16mm across. The bottoms are curved to match the tsuka shape as are most menuki. I have no idea on these anymore. Hopefully Ford will have some input.

Here is another pic or 2 for those interested.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Brian, gents

 

for what it's worth here are my thoughts.

 

The shakudo surround and nanako are undoubtably of Japanese (Edo) manufacture.

 

The gold inserts, while having some similarities to Hirata work (the enamellists) features some significant technical differences. tThe counter twisted wire border for one. But the main difference is the fact that in Hirata work the wires and beads are secured by the actual enamel. They're held in place while firing by means of an organic glue paste. In the Meiji period is was made from Hibiscus sap but fish skin glue would be more probable 'back in the day'

 

On these little pieces, though, the gold appears to be fused, and without the use of solder. This means it's true granulation work. A technical explanation of the technique would be too tiresome to type right now but it can easily be googled. It's generally beleived that granulation was originally developed by the Sythians (Siberia , Russian Steppes) more than 2000 years BC. It subsequently spread to the rest of Asia, the Near East and parts of the Mediterranean ( essentially Greece and Italy, then Etruscan, but also Egypt) so these present examples may have come from almost any of those cultures. The Japanese metalwork culture does not seem to have practiced he technique at any time in the past though.

 

Stylistically speaking they're fairly basic in terms of the sorts of arrangements of beads and wires. We can probably find similar elemants in every tradition that practiced the technique so picking an origin may be impossible. As to age, again, we can find similar work being made exactly the same way today as 1000 years ago. My bet would be 19th century Indian or maybe Thai work of a slightly earlier date.

 

Having said all that it is possible that some clever fellow, back in the day, just got a bit crazy and made something completely different....but I doubt it Granulation work is pretty clever stuff.

[Brian]

....It's generally beleived that granulation was originally developed by the Sythians (Siberia , Russian Steppes) more than 200 years ago....

I assume that is a typo that removed 1800 years from the tradition

Some say it is up to 4500 years old. But definitely not 200.

A good write up: http://www.jckonline.com/1995/05/01/gra ... -technique

So looks like the mystery deepens. If the outer part can be narrowed down to Goto or otherwise, then it is an intriguing piece for me. I am very, very curious as to how they would paper.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

oops, it was late more than 2000 years BC, was what I meant to type. I was just writing from memory.

 

And Brian, that article actually perpetuates the myth that the technique was lost and only redescovered in the 19th cent but this is not correct at all. This is partially true in Italy but the process has been in use pretty much continually in various places. The birth of the myth of the rediscovery of the ancient technique co-incided with the interest in archeology and antiquities in the 19th century in Europe.

Here's a more accurate paper on the subject, and written by an authority the other article mentions yet evidently failed to properly consult :D The author seems to have read hos 'Short History' but not his later work ' A re=assesement of established concepts'

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Scaling down my participation on the forum lately as I am preparing my website for another major update this coming week and have been busy with sales. Amazing my account isn't deleted. Been doing some research about the design of Brian's menuki and I don't think they are Buddhist Dharma wheel the term for this in Japanese is rinbo or rinpo. There are some stylistic variations between the different sects of Japanese Buddhism as well as varying degrees of emphasis on the importance of this symbol but all of the design share some important common features for example eight spokes to the wheel etc. not present in the design of Brian's menuki. I am currently working on alternative theories to explain the design but haven't come up with anything conclusive. I was thinking late along the lines of a Go game board or something similar but generally they have pieces of two different colors one light and the other dark. Brian, I hope you submit your whole wakizashi koshirae to NBTHK shinsa sometime down the line. From what I have seen it looks really nice congratulations.

[Pete Klein]

Snowflakes on (F/K) water.

[christianmalterre]

i really do not know where to put this in fact...

i have never before seen this kind of material (in Tosogu!)...

 

mine stomach but tells me-somebody here got "tricken here" in an considerably high level of goldsmiths/work/quality...

 

this all here, (in fact) pretty much reminds me to mine already published late Edo to Meiji Tabacco-Ire i already posted here some time ago....

 

i personally would be very cautious!....least what i can say....

 

(trying to let paper-so authentificiate it-is certainly the only and best idea i equally would act)

 

the executional quality of this work is certainly to ben named "out of the regular common"-maybe even "excellent"....so no doupt here!...(however!!!-BUT!)i but immediately question any time attribution earlier than "lattest Edo"-rather Meiji here!

 

(mine 5 Pfennig here)

 

Christian

[Jean]

http://www.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/2012/ ... x.htm#list

 

On the Shintogo Kunihiro koshirae, there are interesting menuki.

[Brian]

Interesting find Jean.

I think personally that these were put together by a high end school and either from something that had come their way through trade or they were trying something new based on something seen somewhere. I have no doubts that an artist might try something new if he was so inclined. But even if something else was repurposed, for them to be incorporated into a high end piece like this (Goto or otherwise) must have meant they were significant. The rest of the fittings are mid-high level incorporating the kiri mon. Might only know for sure if they ever go to shinsa, but that won't happen soon. However maybe someone in Japan will recognise the style and have some input.

 

Brian