What can we do to increase the number of Nihonto collectors?

[Kronos]

 

10 years ago I begged the NTHK-NPO to put their "Token to Rekishi" journal on line in pdf form so they wouldn't have to ship it out every 2 months. Too radical an idea at the time I suppose...Perhaps I will bring it up again...I might also pursue the publishing of their oshigata collection on line in some form for reference as well....

 

The publishing of thier Oshigata would be a fantastic thing, not really to increase new collectors but would be an invaluable tool for all collectors in finding rare smiths signatures as it's easy to find 5-10 examples of Tadayoshi even with google but try finding but one of a chujosaku rated smith from the nambokucho as they're not usually published and only the NTHK/NBTHK will have access to the shear quantity of swords that will have examples of all these lesser known smiths.

[Gokaden]

Well the numbers sure won't grow with this news that FedEx now not taking Japanese Swords and I want to know what we can do about it?

 

There is a world market out there but with no one to ship the goods, are we left to personal couriers?

 

Kind regards

 

Fredrik N

[Ken-Hawaii]

Denis is correct: this post is well worth being read more than once.

 

I have a slight different take on bringing in new Nihonto aficionados. The problem I see is that the Millennials, Gen Y, or whatever you choose to call people 35 or younger, simply don't see, think, or react like we older-timers do. Case in point: I'm on the Board of our local sword club, & my wife & I put on an iaido demonstration once a year; the Board & I also give several lectures each year at our monthly meetings, with extensively-researched handouts. Both of these types of events are e-mailed to several hundred people in advance in hopes of having them attend. I get a huge turn-out of younger people for our demonstrations, & virtually zero for our lectures. My granddaughter is 21, & has decided that she is very interested in being the next caretaker of our Nihonto collection, but isn't the least bit interested in doing the background studying so she can understand what she is looking at. But she faithfully attends my Thursday-evening sessions with my sword mentor, telling me that she can learn a lot more from looking at the (luckily museum-level) blades he brings to each session.

 

So it seems to me that unless we can figure out some way to get younger people to be able to sit down with almost a sword in hand, we're fighting a losing battle. My granddaughter has NEVER picked up a newspaper to read about current events, so why should I expect her to sit down & read through what she calls "musty old books & reports?" With sword in hand, she'll happily open a reference book like Nagayama to examine details on a blade, but never asks me to let her read it outside our sessions. There should be something in that attitude that we older collectors can address!

 

Ken

[Sam Elliott]

Hi all,

 

 

 

I consider myself a novice collector - student of Nihonto. That said, there has been a great deal of advice I have received on this board that is quite sound. My current library as it relates to this particular passion is becoming rather extensive, and having the reference information at my finger tips has proved to be invaluable. When I tack down a hard to find book, I tend to get fairly excited. I study the blades and fittings I have, and am fortunate enough to have access to some incredibly knowledgeable people, willing to exercise the patience needed to aid in my education. 

 

If we are looking to attract new people to the collecting pool, I think one of the things needed is to make it as friendly and receptive as possible. As with anything rare and collectible, the risk of conveying an attitude that is rather effete is very real. Like I tell my kids, its not always what you say, but how you say it. Being conscious in terms of how behavior effects others can often time either attract or repel them. While I wont go quite as far as to fully agree with the old adage "There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers" the general concept is one that warrants some thought. This should be viewed as teaching and educating as much as collecting, and this requires patience and a smile more often than the rolling of eyes and shaking of heads.

 

Cheers,

 

Sam

[Kronos]

I found myself contemplating just how hard it is to kantei something the other day and how much of that was simply shear knowledge of all the schools/smiths work styles. This got me thinking that it wouldn't be too hard given the easy classifcations to create a Kantei phone app that does most of the legwork for you provided you can identify what you're seeing. This would tie in with younger collectors that don't like reading dusty old books as Ken puts it.

 

If i had 1,000 spare hours and better coding skills it might be a wortthwhile endeavour. Alas i do not but it's something worth thinking about. There's things you can only get from holding a blade in hand and getting a feel for it and certainly the Sugata would be particularly difficult but I reckon it would be possible to create something that could narrow any given work down to a few schools at the very least.

[Chango]

I can offer some insight, being a noob on verge of getting his first humble and hopefully real Nihonto after dreaming about owning one since I was a kid (I'm 36 now). 

 

Funny, but I had just assumed I was hopelessly priced out of the market (maybe because of the insane prices original Japanese blades were fetching back during Japan's economic boom) so I just assumed the closest I could get to an actual feudal era Japanese sword would be from the other side of museum glass. Still, if only I could of saved the money I've spent on "high end" reproductions over the years without even considering a real one, I would of had plenty to buy a respectable real katana or two from a reputable dealer.

 

Still worried I bought crap though as my new sword WAS on ebay, despite being offered by what seems to be a reputable dealer in America, being in pretty rough shape from a middle-ground maker in a relatively common era for collecting, not too risky a price and having all the details match up with my eye for antiques + severely limited but growing knowledge on the subject. Maybe I'll entertain/torture y'all with a "has I done good... has I?" thread when I get the sword in a couple days.

 

Another issue is the maddenly arcance (yet still new and fascinating to me) world of Nihonto itself. Many newbies just dipping their toes in the water probably get scared away by the sheer complication of it, not to mention the somewhat frigid reception from the "learned ones" already doing the backstroke way out in the middle of the lake. If you want your hobby to survive, you've gotta be willing to be a teacher and someone who is capable of inspiring respect and even awe for the hobby subject in newcommers, not an elitist who spends their hobby time laughing at and smacking around those who know less than you. After all, the old addage "you can't take it with you" should be abundantly clear with regard to collecting swords that are centuries old and may even be nearing their first millenium of existence... and if you want them to make it even longer, you've gotta pass the love and admiration for them along too!

 

Conversely, newbies should recognize this is a complicated and technical pursuit that takes a great deal of effort to grasp, be willing to learn (and especially) be taught, and NOT just be like "Wow! look what I bought online or found in my Grandpa's closet... how awesomely wealthy am I gonna be now!?" after hacking down a couple saplings out back with it.

 

I can already see Nihonto is not about money... it's about the reverence for and (possibly irrational) love of the art of Japanese swords and the spirit of those who made/used them... not to mention a great way to make one's bank account balances disappear (like all good hobbies should!) rather than getting rich by finding a lost masamune blade at a garage sale or even more likely through a Chinese ebay seller! ...which brings me to my last observation! 

 

Reproductions and fakes clearly vastly outnumber the real thing and create a virtual minefield of crap and outright thievery in this hobby that everyone who wants to play has to go up against... something I never even have to worry about in my other hobbies.  In the immortal words of some random urban American lady: "Ain't nobody got time 'fo that!" I know getting burned would slow my ambitions a lot, and just the fear of it takes away a goodly portion of the pleasure from the experience.

 

In the end, is it any wonder quality Nihonto recruitment is "a wee bit slow"?

[Guido]

..., not to mention the somewhat frigid reception from the "learned ones" already doing the backstroke way out in the middle of the lake. If you want your hobby to survive, you've gotta be willing to be a teacher and someone who is capable of inspiring respect and even awe for the hobby subject in newcommers, not an elitist who spends their hobby time laughing at and smacking around those who know less than you. After all, the old addage "you can't take it with you" should be abundantly clear with regard to collecting swords that are centuries old and may even be nearing their first millenium of existence... and if you want them to make it even longer, you've gotta pass the love and admiration for them along too!

 

Long time collectors are in my expierence very forthcoming with their knowledge - I mostly met very kind, patient people when I started out more than 30 years ago, who went out of their way to teach a newcomer. Those elitist and condescending collectors you're talking about fall into two groups: those who are collecting for decades but still don't really get it - they are afraid that you might ask them something of substance, exposing their half-knowlege; and those who come here, learn a few terms, and became instant experts - they "teach" newbies and generally rephrase stuff they heard somewhere else, trying to sound learned.

 

The real problem is to sort through all those who claim to be experienced collectors and/or experts, and find those who you can trust.

[Rich S]

Guido wrote:

"The real problem is to sort through all those who claim to be experienced collectors and/or experts, and find those who you can trust."

 

So very right!. Most, not all by any means, of the (now) old timers were very patient and taught me a lot (much I have forgotten . The late George Moody was my main mentor. He loved Nihonto and was willing to share his knowledge and love of them. He was the main reason I got into Nihonto. I went to the 84(?) Chicago Token Tai Kai (a week long event of lectures, teaching, a sales room, NTHK Shinsa and lots of good food, sake' and friends. I learned a lot that week about whom one could trust. George and Mark Fletcher guided me thru the sales room and educated me on what to look for and what to steer clear of. I bought two swords that week; a shobu wakizashi in full mounts by one of the Kanemotos and a beautiful en-suite tanto by a Sukesada. Neither needed polishing.  Also bought my first loose tsuba from Bob Haynes; a lovely wak size piece Ko-Nara on a Saotome plate; probably responsible for my love for both schools. Bob was wonderful in teaching me a little about tsuba. These are the kind of guys who we need today. True mentors and teachers willing to share their knowledge, time, patience with us poor ignorant boobs. I really miss the companionship of folks like them.

Learning even a little about Nihonto and Kodogu takes time and lots of study and having good men willing to help you along the way is important. Wish I could still do things like that and give back a little of what I've learned over the years. Alas, mother nature being the b_tch that she is has made that impossible. I can still support good websites, NMB being the best and maybe contribute a little to the discussions.  We must though realize that it does take time, dedication and a willing to learn by the student - something that seems to be getting harder and harder for them to do (too much time facebooking,tweetering, texting,sexting, etc. I guess. There don't seem to be a lot of really dedicated students now (though there are some - mostly here :-).  We also need to realize that Nihonto is a very expensive enterprise for most people. We need to teach the difference between poor, bad, good,nice and excellent swords and fittings. Being careful not to put down those who can't afford Juyo and high papered blades and fittings. A nice mid-range blade can teach an enormous amount to those will to learn. Those who aren't will drop away and become "experts":-) (ones we don't need). As I age I find that the good qualities of folks generally out  way the bad; the tricky part is to tell the difference.  My many heartfelt thanks to my teachers and those who truly care about and are willing to be patient and teach us noobs. There is just too much to learn to do it on the 'net. Must be hands on with a teacher. IMHO, Nihonto is at a turning point; hard to tell which way it will go. Well, I rambled along enough for now and it is late here; well past this dinosaurs bed time.

Bye, Rich S

[Guido]

Rich, very good points, I agree with all of them!

 

Another problem is that many newbies just rely on the internet. There's no better way (well, it's actually the only way) than going to the sword shows, joining the NBTHK or NTHK, and meet the faces behind the avatars on NMB, as well as many other seasoned collectors and dealers in person. Some of them never bother to post here, including my mentor(s). The willingness to seek out knowlegable people personally - or even buying books - of quite a few who come here for advice seems to be declining. They rather buy a bad fake off eBay than investing in travelling to where they could learn more in a day than spending a year online. And they are miffed if they don't get favorable responses after posting their monstrosities. And even more so if it takes a day or two; after all, the internet is all about instant gratification!

 

Granted, when I started collecting, there was no internet (hey, I grew up with black & white tv shows!); it makes things easier, but only up to a certain point. There's no substitute for personal interaction. It also makes it much easier to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

[Lingonberry]

I've seen some pretty cold receptions on this forum when a newbie comes in asking for advice on a sword they want to buy. There are plenty of people who happily give good advice but there are plenty of others who seem content to say little more than "that sword is junk, you're an idiot." I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that collecting nihonto is a historically elitist hobby. Another possibility (of which I am personally guilty) is a general dislike of anime fans who wish to buy nihonto for various reason but seemingly never for appreciation. To show off and brag to their friends? Yes. "Martial arts" practice? Sure. To help them live out their fantasy of being a modern day samurai? You bet. But to appreciate their artistic and historical merit? "You mean they're more than just an accessory for my cosplay?"
 

Lastly, and this is a touchy subject, I fear that ageism may have something to do with newcommers sometimes getting a cool reception. Though I have personally never experienced ageism in the nihonto world I have expereinced it in the classic car world. When I was in my mid 20's I started to get interested in classic cars and went to a local club to ask for advice on what to look for when shopping for one, how to maintain it, etc... and almost always the people I was talking to would quite literally turn their back to me while I was talking to them. It felt as if I was being completely disregarded as a stupid kid with unrealistic fantasies and as such was completely unworthy of their time. It wasn't until the next year when I showed up with my "new-to-me" classic that anyone bothered talking to me. It's interesting to note that they were all very friendly to me after I bought the car. Go figure...  

I don't feel like it's too much of a stretch to say that there can and have been instances where nihonto-newbies feel like I did when I first got into classic cars.

The one time I ever went to the Chicago sword show I was a freshman in college and I remember seeing a fair number of raised eyebrows. Didn't get any of that when I was a High School student at the now defunct San Antonio show, though, and I met plenty of friendly people at both.

[Brian]

I've seen some pretty cold receptions on this forum when a newbie comes in asking for advice on a sword they want to buy. There are plenty of people who happily give good advice but there are plenty of others who seem content to say little more than "that sword is junk, you're an idiot."

I have seen this mentioned before, but have yet to see it in practice. Would you post a few links so we can see examples of this?

Because, up to now all I have seen is good advise about not jumping into eBay, not overspending on restoration, and being realistic. All done as educational as possible.

So by all means please show some examples of people being told their swords are junk. That way we can address it.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Adam,

 

I don't see what is the problem saying a sword is junk. Truth is truth. I have never seen someone calling newbies "idiot" on this Board and would not tolerate it.

 

Often people come to this Board only to get an opinion on what they bought or sometimes inherited. Some are genuinely interested to know what they inherited, others are greedy and want to know what will be their profit margin in reselling what they cheaply got.

 

BUT, in any case you will never find me calling someone an idiot/moron on this board for the following reasons:

 

1 - I don't want to call someone I don't know an idiot/moron, by fear of vexing him should he be one,

2 - there are thousands of nominees to this ranking and I don't want to disappoint any potential candidate by naming one.

 

Jokes apart, you are right, one has to be a newbie one day or another, no harm being one as long as you act as one. I have teached a lot of newbies in my life and in several disciplines (Karate, English, Flyfishing...) and never had any problems, neither did I have any problem as newbie because I knew I was one.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Regular people want to see the martial arts and swords are usually just a sideshow attraction. That is what I have noticed during the public events we have held in Finland. Of course as there is an event that focuses on Japanese history and martial arts people will usually take the time to listen an informative lecture about Japanese swords. However Japanese sword arts and other martial arts are the thing people want to see. You need martial arts to draw in the people, and of course it's optimal if the event is free.

 

We had surprisingly large (at least to me) attendance in the last Martial arts event we were part of in Helsinki. Of course swords were just minor attraction as the 9 different koryu styles were the thing that drew people in. Unfortunately many went just straight for the main hall were the demonstrations took place but some took time to view our sword displays with more time and even ask questions. Most people arrived during the nihonto & martial arts lectures and timed their arrival to the actual demonstrations. Most memorable viewer to me was a c.12-year old boy who already knew many sword parts and asked the parts he didn't know from me. It just reminded me of myself at his age, and I was happy to see that there are young ones interested in swords.

 

The unfortunate thing that I've noticed over the years being a member of various sword forums online is that many have short term interest on swords. I've seen many new collectors come and go as their interest has faded away. I've often thought what could have been done to keep them in the sword hobby, as over time people might "evolve" from replica swords onto genuine swords. I think Rich hit the nail with his comment. I think the younger generation generally has very short attention span, it's very hard to keep them interested. It's very hard to make nihonto collecting to fit that state of mind. I think the key might lie somewhere within manga & anime, as I feel they potentially lead young people into martial arts and even possibly sword collecting -> which might with time evolve into nihonto collecting. I guess a new and realistic anime focused on perhaps Sengoku period might be good for activating younger folk. I've been trying to watch the samurai-themed anime that have come out but I've found them generally quite bad apart from few good ones.

 

 

We must though realize that it does take time, dedication and a willing to learn by the student - something that seems to be getting harder and harder for them to do (too much time facebooking,tweetering, texting,sexting, etc. I guess. There don't seem to be a lot of really dedicated students now (though there are some - mostly here :-).

[cabowen]

I think for many interest is lost when the costs, financial and in time required, are understood.

[Loco Al]

Adam,

 

I don't see what is the problem saying a sword is junk. Truth is truth. I have never seen someone calling newbies "idiot" on this Board and would not tolerate it.

 

Often people come to this Board only to get an opinion on what they bought or sometimes inherited. Some are genuinely interested to know what they inherited, others are greedy and want to know what will be their profit margin in reselling what they cheaply got.

 

BUT, in any case you will never find me calling someone an idiot/moron on this board for the following reasons:

 

1 - I don't want to call someone I don't know an idiot/moron, by fear of vexing him should he be one,

2 - there are thousands of nominees to this ranking and I don't want to disappoint any potential candidate by naming one.

 

Jokes apart, you are right, one has to be a newbie one day or another, no harm being one as long as you act as one. I have teached a lot of newbies in my life and in several disciplines (Karate, English, Flyfishing...) and never had any problems, neither did I have any problem as newbie because I knew I was one.

I just had to comment on this post. Dripping with sarcasm, it was the funniest thing I have seen Jean post on this forum in the short while I have been attending this forum. Several posts back, someone dredged up the old mantra about newbies being ill-treated. They are often asking for opinions about junky swords that they have hastily acquired on ebay, or not so special swords that they have acquired by way of inheritance. They are asking for the expert opinion of people who may have 20 years or more experience in collecting nihonto. It is understandable that the experts become impatient with such constant requests for opinions, but it is also not necessarily incumbent upon the experts to offer their educated opinion. Perhaps it is their prerogative to sound a bit condescending, and it may be forgivable to treat some inquiries with disdain. If a "newbie" (having been told the hard truth) later decides that he wants to continue with this pursuit, he will likely be rewarded with good swords in the future. Just call me an idiot.

 

I think for many interest is lost when the costs, financial and in time required, are understood.

That's the gist of it. If you haven't the money, the time, or the patience, then this hobby is not for you. Elsewhere on this forum, I am sure that I quoted this one dealer's comment before. He said to me: Swords are toys, expensive toys, but toys nonetheless. 

 

Alan

[smicha6551]

One suggestion - if offering a lecture on any subject (to include on Nihonto) don't call it a lecture.  That's something one endures.and puts up with.  Call it anything else, a symposium, a demonstration, anything else.  Names matter.

 

I get people asking me stupid questions about firearms every time I work a gun show.  I get folks coming asking about guns that would be best off being melted down into beer cans.  I'm not the friendliest person in the world but I manage to not call people idiots, and not come off as sarcastic and condisending.  I either pass on commenting or just give them the truth.  Partially because I've got an economic interest in being polite, partially because there's no point in being a jerk, and partially because I'd actually like to see more people involved in shooting/collecting firearms. 

[Jean]

Alan,

 

Glad you had a laugh at my post. It has taken me a few minutes to draft these sentences (I borrowed them from a French Humorist)

 

As I said, no need to call someone names for what is just a hobby. Being blunt by saying direct truth like "Chinese junk", no harm.

 

I am a very matter-of-fact guy.

 

Steven,

 

I entirely agree with you on this semantic matter (lecture). There is a guy on a French radio who had a short "educational minute" after the 6 pm news. Calling this minute "educational" is taking most people for dumb. He has since changed the name for "in depth minute" which is in reality a superficial one.

[Brian]

 

That's the gist of it. If you haven't the money, the time, or the patience, then this hobby is not for you. Elsewhere on this forum, I am sure that I quoted this one dealer's comment before. He said to me: Swords are toys, expensive toys, but toys nonetheless. 

 

Alan

 

 

I think this is one of the most important things that can be said on this forum, and the one that is most misunderstood. We often get accused of being elitist because of this statement. However, read it very carefully. You need to be either rich, patient or have lots of time in this hobby. You don't have to be rich and patient and have lots of time. It does help of course.

Lots of us here with very limited budgets. But we are happy to stalk the forum and/or sales for years, until a deal pops up and we are able to grab it. In the meantime, we have been reading up and studying what to look for. That means that we can have a very few nice items, that have taken a LONG time to acquire, but are still able to be enjoyed.

Any rich guy can buy an instant collection. We are not saying you have to be wealthy. Members like myself and Stephen and others here have had lots of decent items go through our hands. Maybe not juyo stuff, but nice stuff. And without a big budget. You just have to be patient, and (or) have a lot of time on your hands. And the knowledge to recognize it.

If saying that this hobby takes time and/or money and/or patience is elitist, then so be it.

But the problem is that beginners come into it, jump into eBay, and have neither patience, nor money. And then get cross because they don't get instant gratification or praise.

Folks...there are many members here who have been here for more than 8 years. And there have been people who were total beginners a year ago and can now give out decent advice. The key is time, and patience and sticking with it. Do not expect instant gratification unless you have a huge budget. For the rest of us, read and watch, and know what you are looking for. And eventually it will come.

 

Brian

[Ken-Hawaii]

Brian is absolutely correct, & I think that patience is the factor that's missing from most younger newbies to Nihonto collecting. It wasn't all that long ago that I was panting for my own first blade, but now I can sit back & wait for a real treasure to pop up...& they do, all the time.

 

I'm lucky to have a mentor who has spent more than 50 years studying Nihonto, & is willing to pass on his knowledge to my granddaughter & me. I just finished reading the post on that exquisite sword room, & had to laugh, as we meet in an old, run-down garage in which we've installed decent lighting. But just last night, I got to hold & study a Higo Enju blade with kinzogan mei for an hour, & last week, it was a Rai Kunitoshi & a Fukuoka Ichimonji. Although most mentors won't have quite that level of blade for study, they will undoubtedly have something better than the (non-wealthy) newbie. How did I get my mentor? I simply asked him if he would be willing to teach me - how many of you have done that?

 

I also think that every serious collector, newbie or pro, is obligated as a minimum to find the person who will be the next caretaker for his or her collection, & either train that person, or find someone like my mentor who is willing to pass on that critical knowledgebase. If each of us could train only one other person, it would double our ranks!

 

Ken

[eternal_newbie]

...

I also think that every serious collector, newbie or pro, is obligated as a minimum to find the person who will be the next caretaker for his or her collection, & either train that person, or find someone like my mentor who is willing to pass on that critical knowledgebase. If each of us could train only one other person, it would double our ranks!

 

Ken

 

I see this point made often in martial arts (particularly the more obscure ones at risk of becoming extinct) and it holds true here as well. Furthermore, if possible, we should use the gaps in our knowledge/expertise and the mistakes we've made during our own journey to help the next generation become even better than us. After all, if each generation is only as good as the previous one, then the art will stagnate - and if each generation is worse, then the art will decay and ultimately fall to ruin.

 

Not an easy task, especially with the rather... unique challenges facing Nihonto enthusiasts in the Internet age, but if the Nihonto world survived the Haitorei Edict and the conclusion of World War II then surely it can survive eBay, Facebook and globalization.

[Darcy]

 

10 years ago I begged the NTHK-NPO to put their "Token to Rekishi" journal on line in pdf form so they wouldn't have to ship it out every 2 months. Too radical an idea at the time I suppose...Perhaps I will bring it up again...I might also pursue the publishing of their oshigata collection on line in some form for reference as well....

 

It's that kind of thing that I think is really useful and beneficial. Getting it in PDF means it's searchable and is a living thing that you can reference easily from anywhere you have an iPad or a computer or a phone. Internalizing 100% of everything that is written is not possible for any of us, which is why we have libraries. Making this stuff available easier via PDF is the same kind of advancement that a library takes when they index their collection instead of throwing it in a big pile of books in the center of the room and letting you try to dig through it to find something useful.

 

Information without the ability to access it is not useful, and having only the most minimalistic tools to access it (paper and a table of contents) is better than nothing but we are way beyond that now.

 

For the record I asked the NBTHK if I could re-publish the English Token Bijutsu. Getting it out there with something like Lulu.com where people could either download a PDF or else order a print copy if they really want a dead tree version goes a long way. A copy right now of this goes between $1000 and $2000 depending on how lucky you are and when you tried to get it. A lot of people do not just want to fork out that kind of money. If a new print can get out there for $300 then a lot more people would get it. Or if you can send them a PDF of it all for $99 your cost is nil, no shipping, they get something they can search and everyone benefits.  

 

They wrote back to me about 3 weeks ago and said no.

 

They said they are worried about copyright issues from members who wrote in contributing articles. I think it is not the right response, because those members who wrote to them gave them permission to publish it in the first place. Reprinting and republishing it should be fine. I think it's just easier for people to say no and do nothing.

 

I told them that overseas members are crippled by a lack of information and they said they'll think about reprinting this thing again on their own but I don't think anything will come of it. It's just really hard to break the momentum of the status quo.

 

Probably if the NTHK can do something first then it can serve as an example and a challenge for the NBTHK to follow. 

[cabowen]

They are worried about people copying and circulating the PDF's which would violate copyright law. Also, they may have had permission from the authors to publish a magazine but did not have permission to make and distribute digital copies. Copyright law is one of the most complex and convoluted branches of law. I had my own go around with the Diet library trying to get pdfs of their digital copies of a 60 year old magazine. They told me I had to get signed copyright releases from all living authors or proof of death more than 50 years previous of any deceased author. Copyright is valid for 50 years after death in Japan as I recall being told...

[Darcy]

I didn't even get to the level of discussing PDF with them. I just discussed reprinting it and paying royalties back for the material. They won't even do that. 

 

I don't know how Fred Fimio got the permission to reprint large sections of it, but maybe did it by stripping out the member contributions (which are small anyway). 

 

Basically I want them to just fire that up and make it available one way or another. I will do the work if they won't. But it's just no, not up for discussion, hand waving at problems, and when the Japanese give you the "its difficult" line you just have to bow and accept it because the true reason may be something else. 

 

Anyway I hope you get the NTHK to do it. I am already using the books that were made available through download as I travel a lot and having on my iPad is a godsend. We need more. I put my own up and hopefully this is a trend that we can continue. 

 

I think though that the elders who are in charge have spent their lives with books and technology is just kind of going over their heads. They understand kneeling on the floor with a big book and have access to the major swords illustrated there and don't quite get what someone would find useful out of making that big book small and on an iPad. If you give them an iPad with all of that on it, they are not going to touch it, they are going to go to one of the books on the shelf. 

 

It is going to require people who grew up with technology to implement some of these changes. So we are pushing at the last non-tech people that will exist on planet earth. The difference between us and them is the same as people who grew up before and after writing came into their culture. They are technologically illiterate and as a result trying to get them to embrace any technology is an uphill battle. 

 

We need data and we need to kill uchiko. 

[Brian]

After the recent bout of postal strikes, I am missing post from November still. Luckily I got my JSSUS Higo translation. But a ton of other post is missing, presumed lost in action.

I am therefore not willing to join up to new societies that refuse to go digital. I'll keep my JSSUS and NCJSC memberships going (and i think they will eventually go pdf anyways) but the NBTHK and NTHK can forget about a membership from me.

One cannot justify the cost either. Cut out the postage, and membership becomes very reasonable.

 

Brian

[paulb]

Sorry I am coming to this discussion late and in my haste to catch up may have miissed something. A point that no one appears to have mentioned is the incredible amount of information in Markus Sesko's publications on kantei. These come directly from the NBTHK monthly magazines between 2005-2012 (doing that from memory so may be a year or two out). They offer an excellent source of information on many, many smiths. True it is missing some of the detail articles you can see in the monthly publications, which is unfortunate, but they do offer an extremely valuable reference.

The fact the NBTHK has been prepared to let Markus do this suggests that their concerns regarding copy right of other contributors work, be they correct or otherwise, are sincere.

If you consider that at the moment the only way people appear to be able to communicate with the NBTHK in Japan is via fax I guess we shouldnt be surprised at their reluctance to embrace more up to date technology. We can hope that when they relocate to new premises that may awaken a new perspective on how they communicate with their membership. Also the more non-Japanese members there are must eventually influence their approach to sharing information to a wider audience.

Living in hope

Paul.

[cabowen]

To me the obvious answer is the American Branch of the NBTHK. Or the Euro branch. I would think they would be the pipeline to communicate with the home office and they would be the advocate for these kinds of projects. Has anyone asked them to pursue these things? Have they already? That is where I would start. I would think it only logical that they would be the prime mover in making these sorts of things happen...

[Markus]

Wanna add my two cents in this matter as I see myself somewhere in the middle of this task. First of all, thanks Paul for praising my Kantei volumes but it took several bends and corners and a turning of two blind eyes to the matter to give me the permission to use the oshigata and the descriptions for my books. 

 

Acting as secretary of the Euro branch of the NBTHK, I tried a few times to get permission to translate and make public information that seemed to me of interest. It always ended up as Darcy said, I was turned down as they were worried about copyright issues. I don't blame them being worried about violating copyright laws as Chris said and as having books published myself, I also want to have a certain protection from my work being exploited. But where there's a will there's a way. So IF you want to make information accessible, you WILL find a way to settle this with the initial authors and contributors. And I am talking about articles in magazines, articles that already have been published once.

 

About getting permission to translate and publish entire books, I can tell you a thing or two about that too. I sent letters to publishers to get the copyright (of course by paying $) of certain books quite many times by now (of course with all the Japanese business letter and politeness bells and whistles, written by Japanese friends of mine for me). Response tended towards zero, and now after having sent the one or other letter asking about the status quo of my request, I start to feel happy for even getting back a negative reply. At least better than nothing... Well, I was pleasantly surprised by the positive feedback I got from the Me no Me magazine, allowing us to have certain of their articles translated and re-published with all photos and stuff. But they are basically an "antique dealers association" and see this thus probably as an investment in the future, attracting more interest abroad.

 

So I am with Darcy on this matter. There has to be some kind of "generation shift" or whatever you want to call it. This refers to what I have written above, i.e. IF you want to make information accessible, you WILL find a way to do so and not to say no by default of fear of just the slightest tiny approach of potential hassle on the horizon. All the requests from abroad that had came after any English information had discontinued by the NBTHK "begging" for a restart of English texts have just lead to half-hearted translations of parts of the magazine made available online. That's it. No articles, no beginner's guides, no pics. This can be much better and as this is the 21st century and the time of eBooks, not even a great deal of money has to be paid to do so. Just translation, webpage, and maintenance costs.

 

But at the moment, I don't see this happen, and I consider myself rather a pretty optimistic guy In the meanwhile, I will continue making available information with what I have at my disposal and will still put as much as possible effort and labor in my blog and books, even if it is mostly not profitable (you don't make big bucks with sword books, maybe I should rather write vampire or BDSM novels ).

[cabowen]

Thanks Markus as always for your insights....

 

I should mention that many years ago, after the NBTHK ceased publication of the English Token Bijutsu, I had the opportunity while visiting the NBTHK to talk with one of the higher ups and asked why exactly they stopped the English publication. I was told they had lost their translator and couldn't find anyone to take on the task. Well, I will volunteer! Um, well, gee....deep air sucking....thanks for the offer but it was decided there just isn't a large enough demand for the English edition....Huh? Mmmmm, Ooooookaaaay........

 

I think the issue in getting permission to translate or republish has a lot to do with worries about copyright on the surface. This is tatemae. The power structure in these organizations has been compared to a doughnut with a hole in the middle. The honne of the situation is no one really has the wherewithal to do the work to generate a consensus of opinion to support it- usually a single person doesn't have the individual authority to make any such decision by themselves- they need to get consensus. No one wants to step up, stick out, make a wave, rock the boat, etc. There simply isn't a payoff. Inertia in the government/quasi-government is the same everywhere but really big in Japan.

 

 

What it would probably take is a few nights out drinking with the right politician in the right government branch of government (say, someone in the ministry where funding decisions are made..) who could be persuaded to make a call to the Director to put a bug in his ear about how good it might look if they started to "internationalize" the organization by say, reprinting info in English...The backdoor is where you enter if you want to accomplish something. Trying the front door usually leads to a pleasant cup of tea, a short chat with the guy at the top of the boss's $hit list, and a vague but polite brush off about how they would look into it/ it would be difficult...

[Markus]

Agree Chris. Had some of these deep air sucking moments myself...

[b.hennick]

This past weekend the Japanese Canadian Cultural Centre held a Spring Festival. As part of that festival on behalf of the J.C.C.C. Token Kai, Sante Tonellato and I set up a a display of swords, fittings and other things in a display case and manned tables to provide information about the club and the display. Many of the visitors took our flyer and some joined on the spot. We have a meeting next week. Hopefully we will see our club grow. As I wrote when I started this thread, one must take personal action to achieve growth.