What can we do to increase the number of Nihonto collectors?

[b.hennick]

1. Take personal responsibility

The Toronto sword club (J.C.C.C. Token Kai) had a meeting today. The topic was Soshu swords. We had 6 new people at the meeting. There were over 20 Soshu Den blades to look at and handle. Five of the six new people were under 35. Four of the five owned a sword or more. One person had several good swords that he brought to the meeting. Sooo all is not doom and gloom. We work at both inviting people to join our club and making presentations that are accessible to new members.

If there are two or more collectors in an area you too can start a club and bring in new members.

If you go to gun shows bring flyers about meetings. If you are involved in Martial Arts post signs at your club or clubs of friends. Personally invite instructors to come to a club meeting.

2. Use social media - as Darcy suggested in another thread we need to make our hobby relevant to younger people want electronic information rather than paper information.

3. If you are a member of a sword club ask others to join. Please join the JSSUS. True we have a print based Newsletter but we do use our membership funds to pay for translations of work into English.

Do you have suggestions to offer? Please do...

[c2tcardin]

I really wish we could get one going here in the Raleigh/Durham area of NC. I find it hard to believe that there are no clubs around here, we have Duke University, UNC Chapel Hill, and NC State all in a 15 mile radius!

 

Glad to hear you had some new members though and most brought blades they own, that's great.

[jason_mazzy]

I really wish we could get one going here in the Raleigh/Durham area of NC. I find it hard to believe that there are no clubs around here, we have Duke University, UNC Chapel Hill, and NC State all in a 15 mile radius!

 

Glad to hear you had some new members though and most brought blades they own, that's great.

perhaps we can find a middle place as I am collector in hickory NC area, and I know of a couple towards greensboro

[Darcy]

Some ideas.

 

1. convert all the back issues into PDF, make them available for download to members

 

2. put them into annual volumes and publish them on Lulu.com as electronic downloads... also since they seem to be formatted in Word, Lulu can convert them into EPUB format and sell them on Amazon for Kindle and Kobo etc. Which is also really useful. So non-members can get access to the information.

 

3. send email to members asking them if they want to opt-out from physical mailing (you can put me on this list). This saves printing and publishing costs and mailing costs and will make more budget available for translations, etc.

 

The total amount of work this represents is a few days.

 

For me, I am on planes a lot and traveling and I have my iPad ... for me this is the time when I will be reading much of the JSSUS publication. Normally when it arrives in the mail I have it with a stack of other stuff and it gets filed into low priority, eventually ending up in the bookshelf and I may not even get to it. If I have it on my iPad I can search for topics I am researching and also I have time to sit back and read... in a hotel, on vacation, in an airplane, on the subway, on the bus.

 

For me it makes the information far more useful and the accessibility for new collectors goes through the roof if they can just one click download an year's worth from Lulu for a reasonable price.

 

By only publishing last year's and the previous years you give people an enticement to still join the JSSUS. If they like the info then they will be kept up to date. Then when this year is complete, batch it up and add to Lulu, etc.

 

Lulu is pretty easy to use. It took me about 15 minutes to put up my existing book as PDF purchase.

[b.hennick]

Great suggestion. I will see if and how we can move forward on this.

[smicha6551]

I'd suggest to both the NBTHK US and JSSUS - please update your sites. NBTHK America is listing events from 2013 - I'm loathe to send money to an organization that might be out of action. I did join JSSUS but I haven't heard anything from them and didn't get a response to my email to them. I imagine neither group is huge but both seem like they're both rather dead. Neither has a Facebook page, simple stuff.

[Brian]

I'll second Darcy's suggestions. As a JSSUS and NCJSC member, due to the past 4 month old postal strike, I haven't received a single newsletter. I am all for an electronic version. Those who prefer a printed one can ask for it.

At the end of the year, allow for a compiled version to be downloaded and maybe an index. The extra time is easily made up for by savings in postage.

 

Brian

[BIG]

What can we do here on the Board?

 

Watching the 1 Post members, helping ID grandpa's sword, I think is Not the Future.

 

Maybe we have to Open new horizons and bring in Some New active members Not only,

 

directly over the sword.

 

Best Regards

[Markus]

I really wish we could get one going here in the Raleigh/Durham area of NC.

 

perhaps we can find a middle place as I am collector in hickory NC area, and I know of a couple towards greensboro

 

Hey, I am right moving into your "neighborhood" soon. My wife and I will live in Wilmington NC from January on so

maybe we can work something out in 2015. I need some time until all paperwork is done and I have finally settled

there but I would really welcome a meeting some time later in the year.

[Rich S]

Make everyone rich and/or drastically cut the prices of Nihonto and fittings so people can afford them :=)

 

Rich S

[Dr Fox]

I would like to add to this theme, from a UK prospective.

 

Living on the West coast of Wales, and not being in contact with local like minded enthusiasts, there are very few opportunities to attend a gathering.

An opportunity to get up close and personal, happened recently at the Token Taikai in October, this with the appreciated efforts of Paul B, and Ian C.

A mention for the Token society who hold meetings in London should also be noted.

 

Whats the problem? Well for me its my having contact with others nearer to my, and their locations, I could host a day at my home, saving venue costs. This is an idea that works, as I attended one in a home in South Wales.

 

So apart from the economics.

Unless one is in contact,with others, who would favour such an arrangement, it can't happen.

 

Well here is an opportunity to get the message out there, is there enough interest to arrange Welsh meets? You don't have to own anything to be an enthusiast, but you would be welcome.

[Alex A]

As i found out selling a sword last year, if the price is right, there isnt a shortage of newcomers at all. I was surprised by the number of inquiries within the UK alone, few of which where members here.

[cabowen]

As i found out selling a sword last year, if the price is right, there isnt a shortage of newcomers at all. I was surprised by the number of inquiries within the UK alone, few of which where members here.

 

 

 

I am not sure what the "right" price was in your case, but I have posted lists of items for sale on this board a few times. I received dozens of inquiries for the $300 projects and they all sold immediately. I had one $4000 sword which was a signed, dated, shinshinto of the Yokoyama school with a spectacular choji hamon, no flaws, etc. I thought it would fly off the board. I think I received one or two inquiries and ended up selling it elsewhere for a few hundred dollars less than I was asking here...

 

I have found the secret to selling swords is to simply price them at $300. At that price, there are plenty of buyers no matter what the item.... :lol:

 

The issue isn't interest- there is plenty of interest in Japanese swords. The issue is, as I have said, that now, unlike 30 years ago, it takes more than interest to participate at a level that will create a robust market across the board. Without a major influx of people with both interest and sizable disposable income, there will be no demand for things that fall between the extremes and prices will tumble eventually.

[jason_mazzy]

Make everyone rich and/or drastically cut the prices of Nihonto and fittings so people can afford them :=)

 

Rich S

 

 

This I can 10000000000000000% agree with.

[cabowen]

Make everyone rich and/or drastically cut the prices of Nihonto and fittings so people can afford them :=)

 

Rich S

 

 

This I can 10000000000000000% agree with.

 

I do too! The former, however, will never happen. The later, a distinct possibility......

[Kronos]

A strange dynamic in the latter is the cost of restoration. You can already see a split between $5000+ Swords and $300 jobbies with everything in the middle thats not in full polish being somewhat undesirable. At the worst I can see this gap growing but that will also balance things out with dropping prices by presenting less worthwhile pieces on the market.

[Alex A]

$300 Chris, il have remember that one :lol:

 

 

Since i started collecting, ive not seen any change within the UK online. Google "antique samurai swords for sale uk", and you will see the same old results that i seen several years ago when i first started to look. One shop in particular, high prices then and now, but still doing well, so, someones buying in. I think an high percentage of these newcomers buy their first sword, then for one reason or another, thats where the interest ends. A vast majority will be put off when they eventually figure out how much of a minefield it can be and how much wising up is involved. I have to say though, i have noticed quite a few newcomers to this site over the last year, a good sign maybe.

[1tallsword]

I first would Like to thank Barry for a great presentation yesterday not only on soshu blades,but blade identification in general. He and the other members made it inviting,fun and most of all informative for the beginner and any collector for that matter. I attended for my first meeting and had a great time. I brought several of my swords and enjoyed seeing others enjoy them. I had the pleasure of listening to some very experienced individuals teach me some things i did not know about my blades. I met some great people and made some good friends. I cant wait for the next meeting! I am relatively new at collecting and studying the Japanese sword. almost 2 years now. Im 36 years old and can tell you this from my experience. make it inviting, make the newcomers feel welcome. If you are rude,tough or too hard on them they will walk and find another hobby that the folks will accept them with open arms and happiness,be happy to teach them and explain things. Dont get too technical with new collectors, try to use easy terms and if using Japanese language try to explain in english as well. if you ask them questions about a blade and use Japanese language point to the part you are talking about and explain the english part of it. No matter how experienced you think you are and some may feel they have something to prove, never and I repeat never make the beginner feel like you are better than them or look down on them, they will just run ! we all started with learning one simple word at one time. we are all learning, some at different degrees and levels but we truly never stop learning. The most experienced people I have spoke with about swords spoke in confidence,kindness and with great explanation,which in turn made me feel comfortable and want to learn more. this in itself shows the great confidence they have within themselves to teach what they know. its not about giving off a vibe to be right all the time,lecture and look down upon people of lesser knowledge. I find to many trying to prove something and talk way to much when they should be listening. I was once told the strongest voice is silence. cheers...

[smicha6551]

Regarding the stores with never changing stock, are these full time dealers, or are they really collectors that are just listing some of their swords for sale on the off chance they sell, or primarily sellers of other items, etc?

 

For the sales of swords in the $3-5000 range, is there any decent way to come up with sales comps? With all but the highest end stamps, coins, guns, and real estate (and things like bikes and cars, though I know far less about those) I can come up with if not identical certainly comparable items that have sold to determine if pricing is in the ballpark. As a new person there's no way that I know whether a sword listed at $4000 is priced anywhere near correctly...which makes me loathe to pull the trigger. Especially as if there's any issue with the polish the cost of restoration is prohibitive. And no, I'm not going to wait 10 years to buy a sword - I rather doubt many of the people who'd give that advice followed it themselves.

 

Anyway, with (as I can see it) the lack of transparency in pricing making it hard for new collectors to spend more than throw away money, which for almost anyone I know isn't $4K. In the US it looks like anything less is so far gone as to be not worth restoration...which leaves me looking at places like Aoi. Perhaps pushing the collection of fittings which isn't as expensive?

[Peter Bleed]

Thank you, Barry, for starting another good thread. Anything that gets Darcy fired up is way cool. I want to sort of brag about the status of the small sword group that has developed at the University of Nebraska. We have been weekly for the past semester and every week a group of 4-10 folks show up. We meet in the Kawasaki Reading room - a wonderful special library that developed with the support of the Kawasaki factory that is here in Lincoln – Varooom Varooom .

Please take a look at our facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/ToNoKai

So far we have basically looked at stuff from my collection. And I’ve done most of the talking. Have they seen great stuff? Do they know enough? NO!, but there is a cadre that knows enough to be interested. The basic point is that once there is a program, people will come. Japanese swords, are very interesting, dammit! I also think 1) that many of us have collections big enough to support lots of introductory looking, and 2) that showing them to the next generation is a good use of our collections.

Peter

[Dick Tait]

I would like to add to this theme, from a UK prospective.

 

Living on the West coast of Wales, and not being in contact with local like minded enthusiasts, there are very few opportunities to attend a gathering.

An opportunity to get up close and personal, happened recently at the Token Taikai in October, this with the appreciated efforts of Paul B, and Ian C.

A mention for the Token society who hold meetings in London should also be noted.

 

Whats the problem? Well for me its my having contact with others nearer to my, and their locations, I could host a day at my home, saving venue costs. This is an idea that works, as I attended one in a home in South Wales.

 

So apart from the economics.

Unless one is in contact,with others, who would favour such an arrangement, it can't happen.

 

Well here is an opportunity to get the message out there, is there enough interest to arrange Welsh meets? You don't have to own anything to be an enthusiast, but you would be welcome.

 

I concur with this, the Token Society always seem to hold their meetings in London and usually on a Thursday night. Maybe they could hold meetings in other parts of the country, and perhaps on an afternoon at the weekend?

[Peter Bleed]

Please let me speak to Rich Stein’s suggestion that sword collecting needs is either 1) more rich people or 2) cheaper swords.

I doubt that everyone is going to get suddenly rich, but I am convinced that sword prices are soon going to fall, I mean plummet, collapse, dumperize!

For the past generation, sword collecting has been built on scarcity. Nobody had enough swords. If you wanted swords you had to go out and find them. You had to talk to the vets. You had to go to gun shows or run newspaper ads and set up in motel rooms. If you were Japanese, you had to come to the States. Until quite recently, information and communication was also scare. An expert was a guy with a little brass hammer.

But all that has changed. Thanks to this Board and it’s parallels, information is not scarce. Now, it is easy to find out about swords. Anybody can get quick appraisals, translations and insights.

The abundance of swords is also going to go up, rapidly. Collecting has created little piles of swords in the US and in Japan. Most of the swords in those piles are ordinary. But good, bad, or ugly, collections formed over the past generation are soon going to be dumped on the market. We are about to enter a period of abundance. Prices for all levels are going to have to fall.

With lots of swords and easy access to information, I think we are about to enter a terrific time to be a sword collector.

Peter

[Ken-Hawaii]

It's nice having an optimist in the group, Peter.

 

Ken

[reeder]

I keep writing up my view point as a new collector then deleting it. so quickly as a new collector it's a scary field with lots to learn and a lot of dishonest people trying to take advantage of you (like any other field of collecting). also, I'm not going to buy anything I'm not certain I can quickly get my money out of it if I need to. I'm by no means rich or well off and I justify collecting to my wife as an investment. I have not lost a bunch of money and in some instances made a little money so she puts up with it. there's a lot of great and direct responses already posted here.

[Loco Al]

Thank you, Barry, for starting another good thread. Anything that gets Darcy fired up is way cool.

 

I would like to second that. You also forgot to mention Chris Bowen. I am always anxious to hear what he has to say as well.

 

I suspect that this topic was prompted by some of the last discussions and long ramblings in the later part of the Kazushige Tsuruta thread in the "Sword Shows, Events, ..." forum. I would like to take credit for that. If I hadn't proposed my follow-up, even if somewhat off topic, then we wouldn't have been treated the somewhat long-winded (but entertaining) discourse that followed. That thread might still otherwise be dead.

 

Richard Stein's reply to this topic was priceless! Cynical perhaps, but there is a certain truth to it.

 

The last reply from reeder was touching, and strikes a chord with me.

 

So far, I have not really dealt with the actual topic. It requires further thought. Must rest the old brain now.

 

Alan

[Alex A]

8 years ago i was totally clueless as to where to buy a Samurai sword, then i discovered the internet. Surely there are more buyers now than there was say 20 years ago.The little i have learned i have picked up from the internet, books and speaking to folk online. Over the last few decades prices have esculated to the point where joe average cant afford average. So, whilst the internet as introduced more buyers, its also introduced higher prices that shuts doors to most of us.

[paulb]

I have been involved with a number of events in the UK.When originally suggested each was met with great enthusiasm with initial commitments to attend. As they came closer and people realised there was a cost involved (usually held at the abosolute minimum to cover costs) the numbers dwindled. As a result organisers spent a great deal of time and effort chasing people seeking additional attendees and getting people to pay (in one case I am still waiting for payment 3 years after the event)

the vast majority, if not all, that attended these events enjoyed them and gave positive input. They also asked when we would repeat the exercise.

The point I am trying to make (in I hope not too a long winded way for fear of upsetting Alan) is that if people want to encourage new collectors they need to be prepared to play a pro-active part when the opportunity to meet is presented. It is too easy to stand on the sidelines and make cynical comments but if we want to increase interest we have to make the effort and also support those that do.

It is intertesting that some of those that decry the lack of new collectors and opportunities to sell their swords areoften the same people who stand to the side and fail to support any intiative to raise the profile of the subject.

[Rich S]

Peter wrote:

 

"I doubt that everyone is going to get suddenly rich, but I am convinced that sword prices are soon going to fall, I mean plummet, collapse, dumperize!"

 

I'm certainly not getting suddenly rich (I can only hope, but I don't play the lottery :-)

While I doubt there will be a total collapse in prices , I do hope prices fall some. Then maybe I could buy a sword; my first in 10-12 years!

 

Rich S

[LakeBum]

Well I got in to the hobby because I saw swords on Ebay. I stayed in because I stumbled upon this forum and you all were gracious enough to help me back to the kiddy pool to learn. I found the right books to start, then started learning the right questions to ask when looking at new swords. I still have yet to buy my first sword, but I am becoming addicted to buying sword books. Since I am banished to the middle of nowhere southern IL there really are not group meetings except the show of shows and the Mid West show in Chicago. That is where I get to ask questions face to face. Last year I had a coaches seminar on the same weekend as the Mid West show but this year it got changed and can not wait!

[IanB]

All, Having lived and participated through the growth of our hobby over the last 50 odd years I have seen it gradually change in ways that seem almost to guarantee to discourage beginners.

Back in 1968 a group of members of the ToKen Society of Great Britain who lived too far from London to attend the meetings decided to get together in the North of England, choosing Manchester as the most central location to meet. Initially about 12 people gathered in a pub and decided to get together six times a year. Since then the group has had to change the location of its meetings many times and sadly all of the original members, with the exception of myself, have either passed away or have moved on, but the group still exists, still meets near Manchester (now directly on the motorway network) and still welcomes new members. Like all similar organisations, membership has fluctuated but I am pleased to say still remains at around a dozen or so regular attenders. Now called the Northern ToKen Society we have continued to be proactive in gaining new members, exhibiting at arms fairs held in Birmingham and Stockport as well as putting on a display items from the member's collections at the Japan Day held in Manchester every year as well as setting up a website. Over the years I have noted the changes that have taken in the attitude to our hobby. Our earlier meetings consisted in the main of proudly showing each other our new acquisitions - these were days when there were a lot of swords about and they could be bought relatively cheaply but information about what we bought was desperately scarce. We then passed through a phase where Japanese dealers descended on the UK buying anything of quality in quantity. The result was that prices rose and the supply noticeably dwindled. The big auction houses, who had looked down their aristocratic noses at this 'Oriental rubbish' began to recognise there was money to be made by selling Japanese swords and armours, pushing price up even further and their availability even further down. However contact with the Japanese had a plus side that resulted in much more information being disseminated among the Nihonto community and giving access to Japanese polishers and shinsa. It was in those golden days I had a Tadayoshi wakizashi polished for £35 and that price also included shipping, insurance shinsa and shirasaya. Sadly this era of increasing knowledge and the delight of discovering unrecognised treasures morphed into a period of what I can only regard as financial elitism. Too many began to adopt the view that if you were not paying considerable sums for papered blades in shirasaya you were not 'a serious collector'. The irony was that that these collectors failed to appreciate that anyone can acquire quality with money and didn't need any expertise whatsoever to do so. I felt then and still do it is those who because of their limited funds cannot acquire high quality swords from the art market yet still manage to pluck out good blades from what appears to be a pile of junk who should be applauded. I was long ago turned away from collecting swords to collecting armour for the simple reason I couldn't afford the swords I wished to own. I now own armours worn by the highest to those issued to the lowest. I love them all because there are no pretensions - they all did what they were made for and helped to save peoples lives.

Ian Bottomley