Slow Rust Bluing an old sand iron tsuba

[Uechi]

I have an old sand iron tsuba probably late Muromachi or early Edo that was mismatched with a Satsuma saya. The theme is a Taira Clan Butterfly. Not worth much money but interesting to me. Unfortunately it was cleaned to the point where all black iron oxide has been removed and it is shiny ( see picture ). I've decided I am going to slow rust blue the tsuba using Pilkington Classic Blue. I'll post a picture of the results.

 

JDromm

[Brian]

Not a good idea. Contact Ford and ask if there is something better you can do. Rebluing will kill it, and it looks worth saving.

Btw, it is upside down.

 

Brian

[Geraint]

Be interesting to see what makes you say that it was mismatched. Is there some clear indication that it doesn't belong to the koshirae or is it just that you assume the butterfly to be exclusively Taira?

 

Curious to see the whole thing.

 

Completely agree with Brian on the proposed treatment.

 

All the best

[Uechi]

  Geraint said:

Be interesting to see what makes you say that it was mismatched. Is there some clear indication that it doesn't belong to the koshirae or is it just that you assume the butterfly to be exclusively Taira?

 

Curious to see the whole thing.

 

Completely agree with Brian on the proposed treatment.

 

All the best

 

The tsuba appears to be a Taira Clan Mon the " Butterfly" Could it have been made by someone not eluding to that clan? Of course but the design motif sure reflects that clans mon. It was with a Satsuma saya. If anything, I would expect the saya to have a Satsuma style tsuba. Namely a "Cross in a Circle," the Mon of the Shimazu Clan or a non clan design. Is it possible that you have a Satsuma saya with a butterfly tsuba? Yes anything is possible. I'm no expert.

[rkg]

I think everybody tries some kind of gun blue before they know any better - don't do it - bad idea... There's plenty of old threads around about how to let tsuba repainate themselves, or if you're in a hurry contact somebody who knows what they're doing (Ford, Brian T, Skip if you can talk him into working on it, etc) (rant about smelly tsuba that have the wrong finish/color, leave their aroma on everything (hands,tsuba bags, etc) deleted).

 

Good Luck,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

[Geraint]

Hi Jeffrey.

 

the points I was hinting at are these: The butterfly is a motif used in Japanese art in many ways and is not limited to any particular region, while a reference to an allegiance might be made using the design of a tsuba not all Satsuma swords would have the cross mon, just as not all butterflies are Taira. You might well be right that the tsuba does not belong with the koshirae but porbably not for the reasons we are discussing. A poor fit, odd numbers of seppa and so forth often do indicate that a good tsuba has been swapped out and replaced with something else but the rather rigid association that you seem to be drawing between one design and a clan is probably not a good way to think about koshirae.

 

A picture of the koshirae would be nice, any chance?

 

All the best.

[Barrie B]

Hi Jeffery,

 

Can we see photos of the Saya or Koshirae please? I am expecting to see a Saya with shallow sori, large Kurikata and a flattened or 'Satsuma Kaerizumo'. Additionally, Satsuma Tsuba usually had saya-dome-ana, although the sukashi on your Tsuba could have served this purpose.

 

As Geraint stated, if the Tsuba is loose fitting etc, then it is highly likely that some $%#@& swapped the Tsuba out.. I believe the term used on this board previously is a Drop Tsuba. If however, the Tsuba fits well then it may be original - perhaps it was all that poor Samurai could afford at the time.. What is the quality of the rest of the Koshirae?

 

Barrie B.

[Uechi]

  Shinto23 said:

Hi Jeffery,

 

Can we see photos of the Saya or Koshirae please? I am expecting to see a Saya with shallow sori, large Kurikata and a flattened or 'Satsuma Kaerizumo'. Additionally, Satsuma Tsuba usually had saya-dome-ana, although the sukashi on your Tsuba could have served this purpose.

 

As Geraint stated, if the Tsuba is loose fitting etc, then it is highly likely that some $%#@& swapped the Tsuba out.. I believe the term used on this board previously is a Drop Tsuba. If however, the Tsuba fits well then it may be original - perhaps it was all that poor Samurai could afford at the time.. What is the quality of the rest of the Koshirae?

 

Barrie B.

 

I'll attempt top take pictures of the saya. The color scheme is red and black. The saya is missing the horn kurikata. The sori is not shallow?. The wakizashi that goes into this saya is a Naginatanaoshi. The tsuba that was with saya ( see picture above ) does not have saya-dome-ana nor does the saya have a Satsuma Kaerizumo.Note I have copy of Zusho Ichiro's book "Satsuma Koshirae". There are numerous photos of tsubas without saya-dome-ana.

[Uechi]

Here's a scan of the tsuka

[Uechi]

Here's a old photo of the saya

 

The other side of the saya is black

[Barrie B]

  Quote

You might well be right that the tsuba does not belong with the koshirae but porbably[sic] not for the reasons we are discussing. A poor fit, odd numbers of seppa and so forth often do indicate that a good tsuba has been swapped out and replaced with something else...

 

So does the Tsuba fit..? We digress from the original patination question..

 

Barrie B.

[Uechi]

  Shinto23 said:

  Quote

You might well be right that the tsuba does not belong with the koshirae but porbably[sic] not for the reasons we are discussing. A poor fit, odd numbers of seppa and so forth often do indicate that a good tsuba has been swapped out and replaced with something else...

 

So does the Tsuba fit..? We digress from the original patination question..

 

Barrie B.

 

Not without a lot of seppa

[Barrie B]

Hi Jeffery,

 

Clearly some 'low life' @#$% has swapped the original Tsuba out at some point.. Very disappointing.. A practice that I despise BTW.. and it is often not just the dealers that do it either.. Often though, the first thing to 'go' is the Kozuka, before a Wakizashi (Koshirae) is sold..

 

Good luck with your quest for re-patination, as I too think your Tsuba is worth saving..

 

Barrie B.