Rare tanto published in 1935 was discovered in my collection

[bigjohnshea]

I was being sarcastic about the Picasso, Christian. :-) I don't think I'm lucky enough for that kind of thing.

 

Thanks for the photos though. It's a lovely looking tanto. After you sell that half million dollar painting you should go buy the Go Yoshihiro Darcy has for sale. That's what I'd probably be doing if I had found a Picasso. :-)

[Darcy]

I wonder if the sword had an important status in 1935, like Juto

 

No Juto then.

 

I am hoping it had high papers then, and has a known history

 

Don't think it is a missing Jubi. Easy enough to check though. But after this there isn't anything that I'm aware of to hope for.

 

The thing about history, all of our blades have it. The less interesting history is forgotten and the more interesting history tends to be erased on purpose. My Norishige has a box from a daimyo with the clan name deliberately struck out. Once it's gone they don't want it connected back to them for the most part. So we just have the handful of blades with established history.

 

By the way this thread reads well with this music:

 

 

[bigjohnshea]

LOL

[k morita]

Hi,

I got the book [ 刀剣実證鑑定法/Token jisho kanteiho] by Shimizu,pub 1934.

Tang 0shigata of this Tanto appears on page 309.

 

This author(Shimizu) didn't trust the signature of the Tanto.

The author was guessing this tanto as Senjuin school,not Tegai school.(?)

[cabowen]

That's too bad....Still a nice looking tanto...

[SwordGuyJoe]

While the author was doubtful, if I read right, it did receive TH at shinsa. Obviously, this blade isn't my bag - as the oldest sword I own is 1930's, but do we have a reason to doubt the shinsa got it wrong? Other than a doubtful author 70+ years ago?

[cabowen]

I wouldn't be too concerned....

[Darcy]

While the author was doubtful, if I read right, it did receive TH at shinsa. Obviously, this blade isn't my bag - as the oldest sword I own is 1930's, but do we have a reason to doubt the shinsa got it wrong? Other than a doubtful author 70+ years ago?

 

I accept the Tokubetsu Hozon papers.

 

Ultimately everyone needs to be able to look at judgments and feel comfortable with accepting them or rejecting them knowing that universal consensus is difficult to impossible to achieve.

[Mark]

probably best to forget it was in the book, that just causes concern and negative feelings. Destroy all copies of the book and erase this thread and no one will know it was doubted in the past. (tongue in cheek)

[lonely panet]

Im feeling abit let down,

we were talked up about this missing treasure and the photos dont show a great deal of detail, to make any call.

 

what happen to the "published" article?? I don't see any similarity

 

im left with the feeling this was more of a free advertising as a dealler, rather then true interest of nihonto.

 

im off to brush my teeth to get the taste of snake-oil out

 

regards Hamish

[Dr Fox]

"The seeds of doubt, grow bitter fruit"

[Christian Chaffee]

Hi Hamfish, I never said it was a missing treasure. I just said I have a tanto, and an oshigata of it's tang was found in a book published on Japanese swords in 1935... which is all true. Until I have a complete translation, I don't know exactly what the book says. This will be known soon, and I'll post it here. If you do not see any similarity between the oshigata and the tang on my tanto....... look again, as no two sword tangs are alike. Christian

[Dr Fox]

If you do not see any similarity between the oshigata and the tang on my tanto....... look again, as no two sword tangs are alike. Christian

 

Christian

 

With all due respects, and I need help here, because I think I must be wrong!

Before your post above, I was actually for a comparison learning doing just that a 'comparison'.

And I could not convince myself, that the mei on the two examples did exactly match.

Also has a camera angle changed the nakagojiri?

 

Put me right please someone.

[NihontoSeeker]

Those are to different to be the same.

Reuben

[Jean]

Agreed

[Robert Mormile]

All:

 

I believe they are the same sword. Oshigata are never an exact replications of the nakago. Paper often shifts slightly when oshigata are being created and depending on how each of the angles of the edges are certain areas can be diminished or accentuated. Look closely at some of the rust spots and pock marks on various areas of the nakago. (if I had time now I would modify the photo myself but…) there are significant correlations in these areas. Also, as the size of the oshigata and photo are slightly different there is sort of an optical illusion. Definitely the same blade.

 

Robert

[Brian]

I agree with Robert. Unless the signer copied that exact oshigata, it is the same blade imho.

Variances due to pressure, paper movement, oversizing the ana etc etc.

 

Brian

[leo]

Definitely the same blade.

Due to the technique of that time the 2 oshigata images do not have the same size and proportion. The left image is warped, too. Then oshigata always look mor 2-dimensional than a photo, the ana look larger etc.

I adapted the photos to the different sizes of the oshigata which should make it clear to everybody.

 

Best, Martin

[Jean]

Robert,

 

It is possible but in this case it is one of the worst published oshigata I have seen. Seems that the blade has switched on left side. A picture of the ura side would be welcome as the Oshigata seems correctly drawn.

 

Edit to add

 

Martin,

 

You should explain me what you mean by "due to the technique of that time...". The technique applied should have been the same on both sides. Even the kuri jiri seems wrong.

[leo]

Jean, maybe a misunderstanding.

I meant the graphic equipment of the layout people/printers who obviously tried to match 2 warped and missized photos of the oshigata.

No macs and no photoshop in 1929 :lol:

 

Best Martin

[leo]

Now I found the term:

The "photomontage" was unprofessional!

 

Martin

[Jussi Ekholm]

Christian what do the Tokubetsu Hozon papers and the sayagaki by Mr. Tanobe say?

[Christian Chaffee]

Hi Jussi, The sword was awarded TH in 2007, and then got the Tanobe sayagaki. I should be able to dig it out of my safe, and post images of the sayagaki by next week....

 

Christian

[Jean]

Ok Martin, I understand what you meant. The photographer was far from professional.

[Christian Chaffee]

Hi Jussi,

 

Here are images if the shirasaya.

 

Please let me know what the sayagaki says, as I never had it translated.

 

Thanks, Christian

[Darcy]

It begins with the obvious, Yamato Tegai Kanetsugu, then says it has a Ryakuo nengo. After this he has some comments on the blade, but I can only get a little bit of these parts without extensive dictionary work. Probably Chris or someone else can read it all.

 

The smith is only ranked Chu-jo saku but there are two signed Juyo that have gone to him. One is a signed and dated tanto. Probably you have a shot at Juyo with this, but would be better if he were a bit higher ranked.

 

One thing about the sayagaki, people are often looking for the keywords of "Chin-chin, cho-cho" which are frequently found on Jutos. If it had this then you could be assured it was a good candidate. However, he does not necessarily put that on anything Juyo Token quality. Just that when you see it, then it is and it's easy for non-speakers to recognize it. I asked him this one in person and he said he likes to mix it up for the sake of variety so it does not mean it is significant among Juyos it just means it is Juyo or should be Juyo.

 

One thing that is true though is that on very good pieces he tends to write a lot. This is kind of basic and makes sense, if the piece is a masterpiece he has a lot to say about it. If it is run of the mill then there is not much to say.

 

On a tanto it is a challenge because space is limited, so they tend to go to the other side. This one I would say is medium length, neither short nor long, as he left some space unused and chose to fill it in the comment section with the length (lower left part). I don't see him singling it out as a special piece though, usually he will call it a meihin or yuhin (優品) or something along this line if it is masterwork. But it will depend on what the rest of it reads as, I have a feeling it is going to say the jiba is good and the tanto is healthy and wrap it up.

 

That it is late Kamakura to early Nanbokucho signed/dated Yamato makes it quite rare so I think it is special, probably on the very upper end of Tokubetsu Hozon maybe knocking on the door of Juyo. If it is minty then try submitting.

[Markus]

In a nutshell and supplementing Darcy´s post, Tanobe says that the blade is dated Ryakuo three, is hardened in a calm suguha, has a good deki, and is a very precious reference piece.

[cabowen]

The lower right describes the workmanship (chu-suguha, etc.)

 

The upper left says it has great value as research material (because it is signed and dated I am assuming)...

[Christian Chaffee]

Hi Darcy,Chris,and Markus,

 

Thanks for the translations of the sayagaki. The comment that it is a very rare reference piece, shows that Tanobe did recognize it as out of the ordinary, which is consistent with it being chosen to be included in the 1935 book. It goes to show... even the blind chicken finds the grain.

 

To Darcy: You mentioned: "there are two signed Juyo that have gone to him. One is a signed and dated tanto.". How can I get images of the signed and dated tanto that went juyo, and do you know what year this was awarded?

 

Thanks for your time, and sharing knowledge. Let me know if I can ever help you out when it comes to California and American art.

 

Christian

[Darcy]

It passed in Juyo session 40.

 

It's interesting in that the signature seems to come after the date on the same side. The tanto is very slightly suriage and the bottom bit of the tsugu is cut off. Or so it looks to me, I think the setsumei says it is ubu though. So maybe he has just scrunched the last character in.