Notice from Kazushige Tsuruta

[jlawson]

Barry, I received a Juyo blade that I got while in Japan at the DTI yesterday via Fedex. Hope that is not an anomaly as I am expecting 3 more.....

[Jean]

Pictures, James, please.

[Davis]

I share some of Ron's pessimism. He cites ivory as an example. Here in the UK a popular TV programme "Antiques Roadshow" will no longer feature antiques made from it. Prince William has stated that he wishes to destroy all the ivory in the royal collections - amounting to 1,200 artifacts. Chiswick auctions of London has been fined for selling it and vow never to sell any again. I like okimono but would never buy them now - the writing is on the wall!

 

I believe good arms and armour in excellent condition will always sell but the market is shrinking. In my boyhood days boys often carried penknives and catapults, boy scouts wore sheath knives, we would also make wooden swords and shields and have pitched battles. Now such things are frowned upon and even legislated against. Real history is no longer taught in schools so it's no wonder that many young people are no longer drawn into the this field of collecting.

Mick

[Stephen]

Mick

 

Todays schools are for tuning out drones. Sad state everywhere.

need more schools like this

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=90 ... =2&theater

[Davis]

Stephen

That's a great school! Really made me laugh.

Mick

[Loco Al]

Dear Peter,

If you're young and wealthy enough its a good time to buy ( strictly as a hobby for enjoyment NOT an investment ). If you're looking to have any monies for retirement and you're older its best to SELL as soon enough no one will have an interest by either .... financial constraints or illegality.

... Ron Watson

 

This is a very interesting thread and there have been some very good points made, particularly in jlawson's first reply which would almost prompt a separate topic.

 

Mr. Tsuruta seems to be lamenting the devaluation of swords in Japan (partly due to a weak Yen) and the fact that some of the better swords are leaving Japan for foreign lands, perhaps acquired by rich people who will have no better appreciation for them than as trophies or expensive trinkets (such as jewelry). "From now on, many Nihonto will be mixed with jewelry and exported to oversea"

 

Turning to Ron Watson's post quoted above: I found this to be somewhat depressing, especially if it is true. Most younger people with growing families, unless they are fortunately rich, won't have the time or the funds (the wherewithal) to invest in better nihonto. Mortgaged to the hilt for their larger than necessary houses, and still making payments on their SUV's, it will be a long time before they can ever contemplate buying a Juyo Japanese sword. If they ever even had the notion to collect such art.

 

As others have said, the better swords will always be in demand and there will be a turnaround in the sword market one day.

If you are close to retirement though, and will shortly need the money, then perhaps now would be a good time to sell.

 

Alan

[Tcat]

Prince William has stated that he wishes to destroy all the ivory in the royal collections - amounting to 1,200 artifacts.

 

Well done Wales. Forget about promoting international peace and nuclear disarmament, that's far too political, far easier to win the adoration of the masses by making sure the last remaining remnants of poor old ellyfants and skilled artists are lost for ever. Well done.

 

On a "happier" note...the Chinese are now collecting Okimono and regardless of laws will pay through the nose for a nicely carved piece of old ivory.

[johnnyi]

Prince William has stated that he wishes to destroy all the ivory in the royal collections - amounting to 1,200 artifacts.

 

Well done Wales. Forget about promoting international peace and nuclear disarmament, that's far too political, far easier to win the adoration of the masses by making sure the last remaining remnants of poor old ellyfants and skilled artists are lost for ever. Well done.

 

On a "happier" note...the Chinese are now collecting Okimono and regardless of laws will pay through the nose for a nicely carved piece of old ivory.

 

 

Sorry tcat, but your's is a totally offensive post on more levels than "political", and I'd be cowardly not to state it here, I being a new member or not. John Irwin

[watsonmil]

Dear Alex, et al :

The problem with IVORY is not the antique pieces carved 100 - 1000 years ago. The problem with IVORY is the failure of countries like Japan, China and other Asian countries to curtail the importation of NEW ivory. This sadly is the driving force behind the illegal poaching of Elephants. Most Western countries ( Europe and North America ) have long ago passed laws with respect to the importation of anything but Antique Ivory objects. A few countries ... in reality only the USA have imposed via Fiat ( Presidential Executive Order ) or is in the process of passing laws prohibiting the import / export ( even between states within the union of the USA ) any and all Ivory be it Antique or Modern. This Draconian law has for all intents made criminals out of literally hundreds of thousands of US citizens. I personally know of many Japanese Netsuke collectors whose collections at the stroke of a pen have suddenly become worthless. I personally know of many Antique Firearm collectors and dealers who have stripped the ivory grips off ALL antique firearms that had Ivory grips. This is absolutely ridiculous as even MAMMOTH Ivory is now illegal.

 

Happily for now most European countries and Canada have not introduced such stupid laws. The only way to slow down the inevitable extinction of the Elephant ( over population of man will eventually lead to their extinction but for a few token animals closely guarded in preserves and zoos anyway ) is to put pressure on the ASIAN countries to stop the importation of new ivory by shutting down ALL of the shops currently carving trinkets ( the Chinese ) and modern Netsuke and Letter Seals ( both Japan and China ).

 

I totally agree that Prince William is a Dink, ... and I believe his father Prince Charles has straightened him out according to what I have read.

 

For those who are obsessed with being Politically Correct in not condemning Japan ... read this : http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... JZ20140319

 

... Ron Watson

[Loco Al]

Oh, come on Johnny.

How could anyone possibly find Tcat's post so offensive? Except that, of course, there is perhaps a certain ring of truth to it.

 

If what Davis said about Prince William is true, then that only helps to confirm what a daft lot the British Monarchy has bred.

 

Why would it have been cowardly to have said nothing about Tcat's relatively innocuous post?

 

Perhaps it would have been "cowardly" of Prince Harry to have not bared his ass for someones cellphone camera at that party in Las Vegas in 2012.

 

Alan

[Tcat]

Sorry tcat, but your's is a totally offensive post on more levels than "political", and I'd be cowardly not to state it here, I being a new member or not. John Irwin

 

Dear Johnny,

Show me said levels?

Yes, according to you I should shut up and kowtow to my royal elite superiors and the wailings of animal rights protesters regardless of my personal beliefs and value system.

Do please tell me where lies the sense in destroying beautiful artifacts? To clarify, I am all for a ban on the poaching / hunting / unethical killing of animals under threat of extinction, regional or global. I am also against ANY cruel treatment / torture / abuse of animals in general. I am not however against hunting, nor the use of animal products. I eat meat and wear leather more or less every day. Incidentally, African/Asian elephants are far from endangered. The LEGAL hunting and tourism industries generate far too much money for anyone to allow that (much more than the illegal ivory trade, go do the research, your concern in about 25 years out of date). IMHO cowardly is refusing to face clear and present threats to humankind and the global ecosystem potentially caused by the proliferation of nuclear armaments and the potential for a 100 year nuclear winter and the destruction of nearly all life on earth, including your precious ellyfants in favor of irrelevant populist throwaway comments designed to give warm fuzzies to ignoramuses. If I had a royal soapbox to preach from that would be my number one sermon. Peace. 'Nuff said.

[Teimei]

I always wanted to do that :D !

[smicha6551]

Regarding Alan's post above, I looked to see what a juyo papapered sword would go for on Aoi Art - it looks like it starts at about $15k. How can any normal person responsibly consider something like that? I'm doing better than all buy one of my friends I grew up with and that's still way out of my league. And I don't have a wife and kids though I do have the SUV and house. If I did have $15k sitting around that could only go to Nihonto related expenditures it would go towards visiting Japan to see the best swords in museums and top sword dealers, expenditure with the change being used to buy something decent and a pile of books. Might not get admitted to the cool kids club but I'll get over that. I wouldn't call any expenditures on hobby items an investment - with stamps, coins and guns I'd be happy to get out inflation adjusted what I put in. I was going to ask in another thread about one of Aoi's wakizashi but it's only 220,000 yen...

 

As for destroying ivory, old or new (as in seizures of poached ivory) I think the law of supply and demand needs to be taught better - if William wanted to really combat poaching he'd suggest selling the ivory and coming up with some way to make the elephants valuable to the locals...such as having a regulated market for legal ivory for export.

[Alex A]

Hello Steven. A phrase ive often read here, buy the sword, not the papers. As for the spending, well, i suppose it depends on how much someone wants something, how much their into something. I watched a tv show recently, in the show was an average guy who liked a particular modern artist, he paid £20,000 for one of the artists paintings, although a big spend, i get why he did it. Folk spend their hard earned cash on lots of things, cant take it with you. Im an average guy, blown tens of thousands on cars and bikes over the years, now theres an investment lol, do i regret it, no.

[Jean]

Ok Guys, keep on topic, there is no room in this section for ivory discussion. If you want to discuss this topic open one in the Izakaya.

 

Concerning sword market in Japan, except for low to middle quality swords the market is declining, for exceptional ones, they seldom reach the market, they are snatched by very wealthy collectors with connections

 

For the good ones TH, Juyo, Japanese dealers are searching for overseas markets. This is time for them to benefit from Yen devaluation. As I said before, Japanese Arts are among the cheapest in the world. Aoi Art has, for years, understood it and developped his overseas market, exporting a lot of middle affordable quality swords. I'll be curious to know its % of inland sales compared to overseas ones.

 

More and more dealers will have their website. Next step, wiil be the time it will take them to overcome their reluctance to have a mirror one in English.

[jlawson]

Steven M, unfortunately your thoughts about the 15k sword are what I am talking about in regards to one of the barriers of entry in this hobby. Also just an FYI for you a 15k Juyo is probably one that you don't want to own. There are varying levels of quality even in Juyo swords and that is the bottom of the barrel so to speak.

[jlawson]

For a wonderful juyo sword you are likely going to be spending 2-3 times that amount. For a masterwork you could spend 10 times that number or more. Take a look around at other websites etc and you will see. It is certainly a gut check moment when you consider spending more on a sword than you did your first home.

[Pete Klein]

If I may, I will offer this as my perspective. Those in this field of endeavor who are 'driven' by the compass of possibilities exhibited do not consider this to be a 'hobby', but an 'avocation'. When confronted with difficulties in investigation, transliteration, historic opinions or whatever, they strive to carry on to 'elucidation', even though often this may not be achievable. I believe if one accepts this perspective in their approach they will be better able to accomplish their journey.

 

Or something like that... :|

[bone]

As a famous man once said; If at first you don't succeed try, try again. Then quit. There's no sense being a damned fool about it. As for me I've settled on concentrating on one school and only waks and katana. I long ago realized I don't have the wherewithall to reach the heights that many people on this board have. Also there's that whole money thing...

[Loco Al]

That was quite profound, Pete.

Avocation: 1. A hobby; a pursuit chosen chosen for enjoyment rather than profit. 2. A distraction; disturbing element.

 

Based on that: One should acquire not just for the sake of acquiring, but for the understanding of what one wishes to acquire. Be it a lowly sword on Ebay, or a five figure Juyo sword displayed on one of the more enticing websites.

 

So far, I have perhaps been guilty of acquiring without doing my homework. Don't buy just because you like the look of a particular sword and it looks perhaps to be a good deal, or you wish to impress other members on this forum. No one is going to be impressed by most fleabay items. Buy it if it is what you really like and you understand what it is, and where it stands in relation to other works in it's period and by that particular smith. Don't be swayed by dealers extravagant descriptions and exaggerations about importance and provenance. Don't buy it on "emotion" (a perplexing term that keeps cropping up), and don't buy it if you are not buying it with "extra money". Otherwise you are just dreaming.

 

Alan

[BIG]

Hi all,

 

Question of Definition. ONCE I read on the Board that an average NIHONTO at Sokendo

 

Store is to buy for a Million yen. So is a Juyo from Tsuruta San about two Million yen a "bad"

 

nihonto?

 

 

Best Regards

[Jean]

Study Peter

[smicha6551]

Not a very helpful answer.

 

I can only guess it's much like coins you can get a common year $20 double eagle for $1400 in About Good condition (FYI that's about the worst condition imaginable) but you may as well purchase scrap gold vs. a more common coin from an important to year in fantastic condition?

[Jean]

Unfortunately, it is the only available and valid answer. Depends on schools, state of conservation, era, smiths..... No shortcut. I love Enju school but like Echizen Rai, it will always be second to Yamashiro Rai...which in general will be second to Awataguchi school.....

[Loco Al]

Hi all,

 

Question of Definition. ONCE I read on the Board that an average NIHONTO at Sokendo

 

Store is to buy for a Million yen. So is a Juyo from Tsuruta San about two Million yen a "bad"

 

nihonto?

 

 

Best Regards

 

That is a good question. As I tried to point out in my last post, that is the wrong way to approach this. It has been said many times here on the NMB: Buy the sword, not the papers.

 

If you are determined to obtain a Juyo sword but your budget is limited to buying one of the lowest priced Juyo swords available, then you risk buying a tired sword (perhaps a less desirable example made by a renowned smith) that has seen many polishings or has more minor flaws than you would expect in a higher priced sword.

 

The other problem is that the more expensive a sword is, the more difficult it is to sell. There are so many of them. It has to be something really special to catch the eye of the cognoscenti. A $20,000 Juyo sword is rarely going to do that. You will likely be stuck with it forever. Either that, or you will have to sell or trade it at a loss in the future. That is not something you want to bargain for, unless you really love it.

 

Here is another example for you: Recently there were four Juyo swords listed for sale at the recent Bonham's auction in New York. I recognised these swords since they had been previously listed (for quite some time) on a dealer's website. They were all estimated at $35,000 to $45,000. I followed this auction and the results with interest. Only one of the four swords sold at this auction. The other three were passed over. Does that tell you something?

 

Don't overlook a good Tokubetsu Hozon sword. Especially if is has been made by a well renowned smith. Rarity makes it even more desirable. If you are lucky, and with the good advice of someone knowledgeable, you might even find a T. Hozon sword that is a Juyo candidate.

 

Buy a sword you like. Juyo is sort of like a seal of approval, but it doesn't necessarily make it any more saleable in the future.

 

Alan

[Derek]

I would make a comparison to collecting cars. You may think it crazy for anyone to spend money on a car collection. Who are you to judge? If a person spends their time learning, talking, dreaming of a certain car, why should they not buy it? I have a friend who owns a 1969 Dodge Charger Hemi, all original matching numbers. He is not rich, but has a house, a daily driver, a great wife and kids. How can he "responsibly consider" owning it?

If I feel the same way about nihonto, it is my choice....

Compare nihonto to Corvettes. You can buy a nice, solid 1984 Corvette for $5000. Nothing special. Not exactly highly sought after. Could we compare this to a solid nihonto, with no major flaws, average smith, hozon paper. If you own either of these, good for you. Enjoy it.

Don't go to a website specializing in Corvettes and expect a lot of oohs and ahhs! Would you call an expert in Corvettes to be "elitest" or a "cool kid", if you brought it to Bloomington Gold, and they weren't excited? Of course not!

If you were a serious collector, you would appreciate great cars, and listen to experts who know them. You would learn, read, look at great cars at shows, and save your money. You would sell things, maybe take a side job, live more simply. You would take your time, test drive many, then maybe take one to a mechanic for an opinion. I hope that you wouldn't buy on impulse on ebay.

If your budget allows, you could buy a 1965 stingray convertible, small block. Ok, now you have something interesting. But maybe it has cracked paint, and not numbers matching. Maybe the comparison is a tired mumei koto sword with some openings. Maybe its hozon or tok hozon. Some collectors would prefer that 1984 in great shape, others this 1965 with issues. Personal preference....

Top of the line budget? Maybe a 1967 L88 Big block, convertible, matching numbers...... Yummy. Out of my price range, but I have seen them. I appreciate them. A Masamune perhaps?

Juyo is like Bloomington Gold certified. Very nice to have. You know what you have. But you could still have a 1984 corvette. Doesn't mean it is worth anything near that 1967 without Bloomington Gold.

Not a perfect analogy, but maybe helpful to new people.

[Loco Al]

Madre de dios!

 

Now if we have to use the classic car (matching numbers 1960's piece of junk American icon car) as an analogy, then we really must be dealing with a profoundly stupid lot. All hope is perhaps lost for educating the uneducable.

 

That analogy is so trite and (perhaps unintentionally) condescending, as to be totally ridiculous and insulting to the intelligence of even the most slack jawed drooling member of this forum.

 

Alan

[Derek]

Perhaps you had a bad experience with a Corvette?

 

And I sincerely apologize to any members that are slack-jawed, drooling, profoundly stupid, or uneducable....

 

 

 

(As an aside... "matching numbers 1960's piece of junk American icon car")

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/18/barrett-jackson-2014-1967-chevrolet-corvette-l88-sells-3-million/

[Loco Al]

No, I'm just jealous because my only vehicle is a Ford truck!

 

Renshi, you were going off on a tangent about classic Corvettes. It might have been a reasonable analogy, but it was at least 12 sentences too long.

 

This thread started with a discussion of Mr. Tsuruta's letter. Perhaps he is just a senile old git, but he wasn't talking about Corvettes. There are other forums for that.

 

Alan

[Kronos]

No analogies needed, it seems very simple to me that Juyo doesn't have a direct correlation to value as the criteria used is different to the criteria most people would use when deciding how desirable and therefore valuable any given sword is. A Juyo's only difference to Hozon is how it fits into the big picture which is immensely important from a historical point of view even if it's in a rather sorry state. It all depends on how important it's significance is to the buyer but if you can afford $20,000 for a Juyo 99.9% who can could simply wait a little longer and spend $40,000 on a really nice Juyo that can be appreciated much more aesthetically which isIifeel why the cheaper Juyo's don't sell well.

 

From a personal perspective I am rather fussy when it comes to flaws and tiredness in general. I'd much prefer an Ubu generic Enju example in very good condition than a signed Rai Kunimitsu that has lost everything about it that made it good when forged.