Tanto by Kanemitsu (mei or gemei)

[remzy]

Greetings everyone,

i recently acquired this tanto and took for granted that it is a gemei since it isnt papered and it is signed Kanemitsu. I would greatly appreciate it if you could look at the pictures i attached and give me your expert opinions about its original, average date of creation (which elude me) and the average apraisal. The polish is old so i tryed to take the best pictures that i could given the lighting i have.

 

Thanks alot in advance for the insight.

 

Remy

[remzy]

more pictures

[remzy]

and then some, im done after these i promise! :lol:

[Darcy]

Probably not good. Don't have a reference at hand but my instinct is the nakagojiri doesn't look like the school offhand and the boshi is not his typical boshi. With the big flaw in it, the tanto should be noticably reduced in kasane. Is it?

 

Take no chances with this signature, there was a guy recently with an Enbun Kanemitsu ubu daito everyone assumed was gimei and it was sho-shin. Sold for a lot.

 

I'd email the pictures to Bob Benson and ask him if he thinks it is suitable for submission to Hozon. If so, send it to him and get it papered.

[Darcy]

Also compare your hamon to the oshigata here:

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/kanemitsu/

 

To help with your own analysis.

[Curran]

My two cent opinion was that the boshi looked wrong for Kanemitsu, but Darcy already mentioned that. Darcy's Bizen book has a great write-up on Kanemitsu.

 

I heard about that Enbun Kanemitsu, but did not know that people thought it gimei. I hope to see that blade some day, if it remains in North America.

[Darcy]

Curran, I think it was more of a "oh yeah, a signed, dated, ubu Kanemitsu tachi, yeah like that will be legit." You just can't hope for such a thing.

 

And it was good.

[nagamaki - Franco]

http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showphoto.php?photo=14636&sort=1&size=medium&cat=3752&page=1

[nagamaki - Franco]

[remzy]

  Darcy said:

... With the big flaw in it, the tanto should be noticably reduced in kasane. Is it?

 

...I'd email the pictures to Bob Benson and ask him if he thinks it is suitable for submission to Hozon. If so, send it to him and get it papered.

 

Yes the kasane seems thiner than it is at the tang under the habaki, if that is what you meant. How would i get in contact with M. Benson? Also, wouldnt i need it to be proprely polished if i were to send it over to get papered? assuming it isnt entirely fake.

I still find it very interesting even if it has flaws and lacking polish, gemei or not.

 

I am sort of new around so anything you can tell me will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

Remy

[Darcy]

Remy, since the sword is signed it is not as difficult a task to analyze it. It becomes a yes/no based on the signature, rather than trying to pin the tail on a donkey with 30,000 asses. In a manner of speaking :-).

 

You can contact Bob at http://www.togishi.com

 

His determination of the signature will probably be accurate. If he says gimei, then you have to make the further decision to keep and cherish as is, or else remove and find out who made the piece. Bob is not really into wasting any time so if he says it's worth sending over to try for Hozon then it is. If he doesn't think so he'll let you know, and he's usually blunt. Sometimes too blunt :-).

[Darcy]

Franco posted a perfect example of Kanemitsu.

 

The nakagojiri, this is what you are looking for... nakago finish is very important. The boshi is textbook Kanemitsu. Should look like a candle flame. The problem with daito is that they're almost always suriage for this smith so we don't get good references for the nakago unless we look at tanto, but the boshi ideally will match the textbook reference.

 

So your piece does have these two strikes, but it is worth it to send the mei to Bob and see, then decide about removal.

 

Looking again at your boshi, the closeup pictures both obscure the shape a bit (I know it's hard to take good pictures of these), and the polish may be bad... so we on our side of the internet(s) may not be seeing its shape entirely accurately. Keep that in mind as you evaluate it.

[remzy]

Heres some more of the boshi, i did my best trying to get the boshi right but it always end up slighty more rounded in the picture than it actualy is

[JonP]

I too have a tanto signed by Kanemitsu Circa 1450 - 1550

The blade shows unmistakeable Mino manufacture traits in the "Taka no Ha Yasuremei" (Swordsmith's signature file-mark pattern) While incredibly feint, after 500 yrs, they can be still positively identified

 

The blade shows VERY STRONG tempering clearly throughout most of its length & exhibits a very RARE trait "Utsuri" (temperline shadow reflection) Found ONLY when a sword is tempered by heating & quenching at the OPTIMUM temperature

 

Only the most experienced and SKILLED sword makers were able to produce Utsuri in their blades. The ability to do so "at will" was LOST around the 17th Century, & only re-gained in 1972 by Yoshindo Yoshihara (elevated to the status of "living national treasure" soon afterwards)

 

There are "Hadaware" (minor forging flaws) in the form of poorly adhered welds after MANY sharpening & polishings throughout it's working life. 95% of ALL Koto swords display Hadaware they are little detraction to knowledgable collectors of KOTO era swords.

 

Blade length 8.5" along back edge & MASSIVE 7.75 mm thick @ Habakimoto (IE as THICK as any Katana !)

 

Tang is "Ubu" (As made 500 years ago)

 

My shira saya reads Shirasaya inscription reads "Noshu Ju Kanemitsu" (Kanemitsu living in Mino province)

 

I have just sent it to Kam at Jigoku studios to be polished to get rid of the horrible marks some fool made to the tip. Sadly my photos are rubbish but they might help.

Jon

[Darcy]

The two Kanemitsu smiths are different... they come from different periods and traditions.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Darcy says:

 

  Quote

The nakagojiri, this is what you are looking for... nakago finish is very important

 

That's right and the nakagojiri of Osafune Kanemitsu is kurijiri haru (thick)

not ha-hagari kurijiri like this one.

 

 

And i should be surprised to find an Osafune Kanemitsu without any papers.

[Guest reinhard]

The sword is gimei. Apart from the poor quality of the blade, the second and third stroke in the Kanji for "Mitsu" proove it definitely. Don't waste your money. Kanemitsu was highly esteemed and sought after for hundreds of years in Japan. You'll not find one as a bargain.

[remzy]

Greetings everyone, first, I am sorry to resurrect this very old thread but a question emerged and I am in a bit of a dead end...

 

I have been talking to someone about this particular tanto and he showed interest in it, even tho I have informed him of the huge possibility it being gemei (99.5%).

Now I know that I have paid way to much for it back then, live and learn, but I was wondering how much I should ask for it, so that I do not rip him off, knowing all that I know, it still is an old Nihonto, even if it is out of polish, average quality and gemei.

 

I do not want to scam anyone and I am lost as to what would ethically be correct to ask, my guess would be around 350.

 

I know some of you do not like to discuss finance and I am sorry for that, but short of giving it to him or asking too much, I greatly appreciate to have some sort of average idea.

 

Best regards,

Remy

[Darcy]

You can try the cards on the table approach. Say you paid $X and think the signature is no good, and will sell for a loss but you're unsure about what's fair. Let him offer and if you feel it's a fair offer, accept it.

 

Or, just throw it on ebay with your thoughts and let the speculators decide the market value.

[Brian]

I would say that even for a mediocre and out of polish gimei tanto...$350 is on the low side. Maybe $500 or so at a guess.

 

Brian

[remzy]

Thanks you Darcy and Brian, that is the reasonable approach,

Do you gentlemen think it would be possible to identify the maker based on this scan? Ignoring the mei.

http://oi41.tinypic.com/2ex1x04.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/kq64p.jpg

http://oi40.tinypic.com/5lb15i.jpg

[remzy]

Hmmm I am confused because, some time ago I bit the bullet and sent this blade for appraisal to Fred Fimio who has over 60 years of experience in nihonto, far more than I could dream to obtain in my lifetime... and the according to him "the mei appears genuine" and he attribute it to Bishu Osafune Kanemitsu. I know some of you said it was most likely gemei so I am puzzled...

 

Someone mentioned it wasnt worth restoring while Fred suggest it would, any other imput?

 

Regards,

Remy

[runagmc]

You can ask others for their in hand opinion, or send it to shinsa... not much else you can do...

 

For my opinion (which is only worth what I charge for it), the mei of Kanemitsu is fairly neat and distinct in all examples I have seen, and this one doesn't have that look. As Reinhard said, look at the MITSU (probably the most unique character in Kanemitsu mei) on all the examples you can find and compare it to yours. It doesn't look like a match to me...

[remzy]

Hi Adam,

I am not good enough to distringuish the difference between both Mitsu kenji, is it because two of the little strokes are not at the exact same place? I didnt think mei needed to be this identical, imagine punching perfectly identical mei by hand for over 50 years, youd guess some would come out different.

 

Thanks for your reply either way

 

Regards

[Brian]

Consign it to the upcoming US shinsa. Only way to go really. After that, you can decide if you need to polish or sell.

 

Brian

[Ken-Hawaii]

If you decide to polish your blade & want to send it to Benson, I suggest that you ask for Woody to do the polishing. Everyone in my sword club who has used Woody has been ecstatic about the results.

 

Ken

[Guido]

  remzy said:

Fred Fimio who has over 60 years of experience in nihonto, ...

... and still has no clue.

[lbkmd43]

enbun kanemitsus boshi was his famos flame tip as opposed to kanemitsus early work which was more kagmitsu like

[remzy]

  Brian said:

Consign it to the upcoming US shinsa. Only way to go really. After that, you can decide if you need to polish or sell.

 

Brian

 

 

And how would i go about doing that? I live in Canada.

 

Thanks

[Jean]

  Quote

.. and still has no clue.

 

I could not agree more Guido. It is not because you have been studying Nihonto for 60 years that you are an expert, all depends how you studied. I know people who after ten years of study were much more advanced than old timers with 40 years of experience.

 

Remy,

 

First, you must learn what is an expert, you have several guys as Reinhard, Darcy, Guido who are well known collectors, have written worthy books/articles. I encourage you to read these books:

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/bizen-to/ and the one written by F. Fimio on the Bizen school. You will see the difference...

 

Stop one for all to seek advices here and there, just to find the one which suits you.

 

Rule of Thumb: Go for Shinsa, it is the jury.

 

BTW, no one has to be an expert to compare two mitsu kanji which are almost the simplest, one can find; you must learn, otherwise you will always depend on the opinion of would-be experts.

 

 

You can send your sword to someone in US who can represent you at the Shinsa and book a slot. If you read the Board posts you will find the info without any problem. BTW, Darcy and Barry are both Canadian and can explain/show you the way to do it.