Kama, Jingama, Kusari-gama, Kama-yari etc.

[Bugyotsuji]

Roald & Patricia Knudsen's view on the matter:

[Bugyotsuji]

Haha, got several 'likes' on the previous page, for which grateful thanks,

 

...but as of this evening not one person has 'liked' the signature!

 

What would Freud say about that?

 

("Go see your sword teacher!")?

[Bugyotsuji]

Taking everyone's advice concerning the long-handled kama, I went to see the sword Guru with a small and humble present in hand. There was good news and bad news.

 

He opened a massive book devoted entirely to Settsu Sukehiro, and close comparison of the Mei pulled up various flags. The bad news is that he does not trust the Mei, which has been cut too shallow, and some of the strokes are 'wrong'. He felt that it has been done recently, and the nakago repatinated.  (So hey! No-one here fell headlong into praising the Mei...!)

 

The good news is that I could see he liked the activity in the blade. The hamon contains an example of Kani no tsume crab pincers, he said. The tobi-yaki, hitatsura 'tama' spot which I pointed out, he felt was just coincidence. I made a little joke, "so, tama-tama, tama, desu ne."  He nodded distantly. I asked for his feeling regarding age and location. The work reminded him of Tsunahiro school of Sagami, So-Shu, mid-Edo onwards. He polished out a couple of dodgy rust spots in the ji for me, but advised me against sending it for a general polish, because with this saya construction "it will inevitably lose any benefit once more". He commented on the oval cross-section haft, and loved the quality of the koshirae, agreeing that it has good age to it.

 

Conclusion, a nice little thing, to which someone has probably subsequently thought to add a signature.

 

Sorry to disappoint, but thank you for reading this far.

[Brian]

Were they sword mei compared to this one, or also constrained mei on a small area?

[Bugyotsuji]

Brian, can you rephrase that?!

[Brian]

The mei in the books that he compared with yours...were they mei from swords, or were they mei examples from things with narrow nakago like kama, yari etc?
Just wondering if a smith signs slightly differently when he has less surface area and space to work on.

[Bugyotsuji]

Good point. Actually we found a spear or two, but he was comparing this one with sword tangs. This kama has a wide tang though, with very similar dimensions to a Katana, so probably not a restricting factor. Now you have got me wanting to double check that! I'll ask him tomorrow.

[Bugyotsuji]

Post Scriptum. "It is a question of stroke-cut directionality, indicating individual writing style."

[Bugyotsuji]

Jumping back to the first Kama for a minute, ie the Minamoto Nobuyoshi with a Yokote starting this thread.

 

Yesterday I was at the local sword meet when a young (?) lady brought out a katana in gunto leather saya and asked the sensei to check it out for her. It was among her father's belongings and she needed to know if it was worth keeping. I heard my name being called out and walked over to see. "Look at the registration card!" they said.

Brand new, it said 源信吉 "Minamoto Nobuyoshi" in clear black writing...!

 

He drew out the rusty blade and they managed to get the tsuka off. Frantically I dialled backwards through the phone to find a comparative shot of my nakago. Sadly they were different, but now I can cross off another Nobuyoshi, bringing me ever closer to the truth! 

(The katana was probably Kanbun/Enpo Kyoto/Yamashiro (Kiku mon) Takai Echizen no Kami Minamoto Nobuyoshi, the Yasurime being typical? Takanoha.)

[Greg F]

Great thread Piers and I love the photos of your kusarigama/kama. I hadnt seen such nice blades on these before.

Definitely something i would cherish in a collection. Good luck on your search. All the best.

 

Greg

[Bugyotsuji]

Many thanks, Greg. It has been hard to keep this thread honest and dispassionate. Naturally as a pensioner I have these inner expectations and urges to own a big name smith's creation without splashing out on a full-length tachi or katana, and sadly that has probably shown through my over-eager descriptions.

 

So, just as long as I can remember to use these blades as study pieces, and remove myself from subjectivity, then a goal of sorts can be achieved.

 

And regardless of any other factors, I must confess that I do love them. I think I will take them both along to our next sword meeting as extra material. The members here do like a bit of amusement on the side, and they know me and how I like to bring unusual things along!

 

(At the last meeting some of them were fascinated to see for the first time a Koshi-ate leather pad once hung to protect the Tachi saya from banging against the hip. Neither did they recognize the donut-shaped Tsuru-maki hanging from it.)

[estcrh]

Hi Piers,

 

I'm a bit late to this one but I remember that Darcy had a very nice example of a kama blade for sale a few years ago. I don't recall whether it was signed but I think it did have an attribution at least. You might want to drop him a line in case he can help with your research - unfortunately it's not up on his website now.

 

Kind regards,

John

John, is this the one from Darcy? Not much like Piers example, different blade type and no hole for a chain, long nakago meant for a pole, Piers example could be mounted in a pole or as a hand weapon. Darcy says that this one was probably a kama yari but I have to disagree with this as it has no point.

 

Japanese kama blade by Takahashi Nobuhide, Shinshinto (AD) nakago:49cm, 2 mekugiana mei: 浪花住清雲子高橋信秀之道 (Naniwa ju Seiunshi Takahashi Nobuhide), uramei:増田原四？正義？？作之慶應四年秋 月？日作之 (Masuda Genshiro Masayoshi [?] Saku Kore, Keio 4 Nen [1868], Autumn [?] Day, Saku Kore), nagasa:10.5cm.

 

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a8/67/d4/a867d430387abeec526585e82135bf63.png

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Nice find. Many thanks Eric. The white paperwork suggests it was made by Masuda Genjiro Masayoshi.

I wonder if the absence of a hole and the long nakago might have led to calling this one a Kama-yari? (Knudsen's kamayari definition at the top mentions no vertical point.)

[estcrh]

I wonder if the absence of a hole and the long nakago might have led to calling this one a Kama-yari? (Knudsen's kamayari definition at the top mentions no vertical point.)

Piers, this "yari" designation goes back as far as George Stone (1930s), in his book he describes a hand held kama as a "kama yari". In my opinion if it does not have a point it is not a yari, just as a kama with a hole is not a kusurigama if it does not have a chain and weight.

 

 

[estcrh]

Piers, I can not remember seeing another kama mounted like this one, it looks like it has a naginata ishizuki, is the pole oval or round, the whole thing looks to be custom made.

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

The problem is that various opinions and definitions come together here.

 

Not too long ago I was told that a kusarigama can have a chain from the bottom end of the handle, or from the back of the blade, the chain length and swinging style being different for each type. I was tempted to source an old chain and fit it to the blade of the first of the two Kama above, (did you see the first one, with a yokote?) but having had it polished professionally it would have been stupid to add a rusty chain to the blade. There was a candidate Kusarigama which I considered buying just for the chain and weight. Besides immediate rust, a shirasaya would have been a nightmare to create for a blade with a chain attached. Thinking about it, when the smith made the blade, he added a hole for later fitment of a chain. Imagine that the chain was never fitted. Does that make it any less of a kusari-gama? If the intention is to make a blade for a Kamayari/Kusarigama, then surely the intention of the smith defines the purpose of the blade, well before any accessories are fitted or not. (?)

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, the pole on the one you have just posted is oval in cross-section. I was assured by my sword teacher that the koshirae is genuinely old, ie Edo at the latest. The blade he feels is of So-Shu Tsunahiro lineage, mid-Edo, so it is possible that the whole package was contemporary to the blade. Sometimes swordsmiths took unusual orders when the demand for swords was scarce.

 

PS That was why I bought each of these Kama; none of my Japanese sword-collecting colleagues had seen anything like them. This Saturday I will be taking both to our sword meeting for some light entertainment. Naturally I will be listening out for any pearls of wisdom, hiding in offhand comments!

[estcrh]

Here are Serge Mol's and Don Cunningham's thoughts on kama, which they call "jingama".

 

 

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c7/e9/63/c7e9634afd06d866e9d1746a6d38bc9c.jpg

 

 

 

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/45/72/d4/4572d441b6d0e3f159385b9f77d39360.jpg

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hmmm... interesting. The first of my two is "reinforced by sandwiching a thick metal strip in the wood; a useful feature when parrying an opponent's weapon", as your article says above.

[estcrh]

Eric, the pole on the one you have just posted is oval in cross-section. I was assured by my sword teacher that the koshirae is genuinely old, ie Edo at the latest. The blade he feels is of So-Shu Tsunahiro lineage, mid-Edo, so it is possible that the whole package was contemporary to the blade. Sometimes swordsmiths took unusual orders when the demand for swords was scarce.

 

PS That was why I bought each of these Kama; none of my Japanese sword-collecting colleagues had seen anything like them. This Saturday I will be taking both to our sword meeting for some light entertainment. Naturally I will be listening out for any pearls of wisdom, hiding in offhand comments!

Piers, I do not doubt its age at all, a very rare weapon. Have you entertained the possibility that this had a dual use, mounted in a pole as a kama and it could have also had a hand held kusarigama mount with a removable chain, just pull out the mekugi and put the blade in whatever mounts you needed at the time. The fact that it has an oval shaft and a naginata ishizuki seems to indicate that the mounts were originally from a naginata and not a yari. As for the hole, in my personal opinion, if it has a chain and weight it becomes a kusarigama, otherwise it is a kama / jingama. Below is a quote from Don Cunnungham, in which he says "The weighted chain added to the jingama to complete the kusarigama", which to me says that a chain and weight is needed for a jingama to be a kusarigama. As for your weapon, I would not think about adding a chain and weight, it would scratch the blade and fittings etc and it seems to me as a pole weapon a chain and weight would not be of much use.

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/73/ab/d6/73abd664e70f0c5974225f9b53a0f95f.jpg

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, I will ask my sword teacher if he thinks the pole is a dedicated one-off or whether it could have been originally for a naginata. (My own feeling is that it is somehow slimmer than those naginata/nagamaki hafts that I have handled in the past.)

 

(Signing off for a while.)

[IanB]

Piers, Years ago I was offered a strange yari I just could not afford to buy at the time. That had a blade that was a T shaped - equal arms at right angles to the shaft and straight along the top with the hamon running from end to end hence not a conversion job from a jumonji yari. It even had the saya which was in two parts that fitted from each side, one side fitting inside the other when joined. The shaft was about 2m with the usual lacquered upper part with copper mounts above the conventional cord hand-stop. Whether it had a signature I do not know since it was immediately put into the dealer's car when I admitted I couldn't afford the price. I remember thinking at the time it reminded me of the weird and wonderful weapons often depicted as being carried in a sack by Benkei in woodblock prints.

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

Ian, what a shame! Were you able to dismiss it from your mind? It reminds me of something one of the characters in Saiyuki carried. I wonder if we can find an illustration somewhere.

[IanB]

Piers, When you have lived in penury for most of your life it is easy to dismiss things and walk away.       My dear old dad was a supreme master of the 'I'm only a poor old pensioner' stunt and pulled off some amazing deals. However I try I am but an ant in his shadow. (quite poetic that) 

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

Ian, I reckon the boy done good in this lifetime, and his Dad would be right proud.

 

For a man with no money, where do you find all your nice things?

[estcrh]

Piers, a present for you.

 

美作國藤原兼先 片鎌槍 珍品 白鞘 特別貴重刀剣  刀身：約24.4cm 反り：約1.2cm 元幅：約29.1mm 元重：約6.9mm 先幅：約20mm 先重：約4.4mm 目くぎ穴：1個 刀身重量：約243g

 

 

[estcrh]

Kurisagama by swordsmith on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SS-56-KUSARI-GAMA-/222501279936

Junk, there must be a kusarigama factory in China. Red rust, no wear, rather crude looking. Unfortunately there are so few certifiable authentic examples to look at it is understandable that people are fooled by fakes or reproductions, whatever you consider them to be.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Well Eric, the official name given to that one is 'Kata Kama yari', i.e. One-sided sickle spear', but there is no hole in the back of the blade.

In 1978 the NBTHK gave it the paperwork, but no suggestion as to its age. There was a smith of this name Kanesaki active around Bunsei, (Nihonto Meikan) said to be of the school of Suishinshi Masahide. Hmmm...

[Stephen]

nice one just closed on Yahoo, polished, good price!

 

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/x492025488?u=%3bbrandlandjp#enlargeimg

[Bugyotsuji]

The one above!