First sword tell me what think.

[Juggernaut]

Just bought this sword don't know to much about it, but do know that it's signed by inoue izume no kami kunisada. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated

[Brian]

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Izumi_no_Ka ... a_mei.html

This should tell you a lot about him, and Google will tell you much more.

Don't think a person would purchase a Shinkai without knowing anything about him though?

Don't know if it is shoshin or not. Without papers, I think you have to expect gimei until you submit it. But it is a beautiful looking, in polish sword with a nice hamon and hada, so assuming you didn't pay full "Shinkai" price, I suspect you did well.

 

Brian

[hxv]

I saw this sword on ebay by sedonafotopro and emailed him. It's a nice sword, but definitely gimei. The workmanship is not that of Inoue Shinkai, and the signature is not correct.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Juggernaut]

Yea i am worried i paid too much for it, but i like it a lot a plan on holding on to it for a while so i'm not to worried about it

[Brian]

...and then you list it for sale on the For Sale section?

Please sign all posts with a name, as per the rules.

 

Thanks,

Brian

[Juggernaut]

I don't see anything wrong with seeing how much you can get for something, everything is for sale its just a matter of price!!

 

Thanks,

Chris

[hxv]

All items listed for sale MUST have an asking price. We can't go on fishing expeditions on NMB. Regarding your sword, if you want to get it papered, you will need to remove the gimei first. The cost of removing the gimei, plus round-trip postage to/from the togishi will run $250. The cost of getting NBTHK Hozon, with agent's fee, plus postage, will run approximately another $750. Your sword, being a mumei shinto (after removal of the gimei), will receive Hozon and no higher. Mumei Shinto Wakizashi, in good polish, shirasaya, and with Hozon origami, will be in the $2000-$3000 range, normally closer to $2k than $3k. So, if you paid $2k, you are at best breaking even, if you are lucky. Personally,

 

1. If I paid >$2k or more for this sword, I would leave it as is and enjoy it. When I am ready, resell it and take a lump if necessary.

2. If I paid between $1k and $2k, I would gamble and get it papered.

3. If I paid <$1k for it, I would certainly get it papered.

 

My choices above reflects my personal opinion only and reflect my risk tolerance. Everyone is different in the collecting world.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Ken-Hawaii]

Chris, Harvey at sedonafotopro is a pretty straight-shooter, so if he thought your blade wasn't sho-shin, he would have posted it that way.

 

Ken

[hxv]

Ken,

 

The original listing was schizophrenic. The seller talked at length about how this sword might be gimei, but also talked at some length about how it might be shoshin. But, he did say to buy the sword, not the signature. When I emailed him privately about why I strongly felt the sword was gimei based on workmanship, he conceded quite openly. He seems to be straightforward and honest, but a bit on the optimistic side regarding his swords, and perhaps a bit eccentric. You can read the original posting below.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331350084789?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yeah, that's pretty much the way Harvey describes what he sells, Hoanh. Not sure I'd call that schizophrenic, though. And at least he tries to provide as much provenance as he can, which is a lot more than many other eBay sellers!

 

Ken

[Juggernaut]

Yeah he was a pretty nice guy but I wasn't buying it because of the signature anyway I like the sword in general!! I'm not going to bother getting it papered or anything like that just going to put it away for a while and only take it out to show people

 

Chris

[Darcy]

There is some variation in the work style with Kunisada (note not Shinkai). Pre-name change blades have some variety to them. Better to check to see for issues in the signature.

[cabowen]

This blade purports to be by Shinkai, the nidai Kunisada. Here is a valid signature for comparison:

 

[Juggernaut]

thanks for the reference signature, i am going to look into it and see what i can find out.

 

Chris

[Juggernaut]

was hoping someone could help my with the translation on the shirasaya and the sword bag it came with

 

Chris

[Rivkin]

There are plenty of books/pictures on the net to compare the signature against.

But I would just note that 2k barely, or does not cover quite decent polish this blade is in, with shirasaya and habaki.

And as much can be judged from pictures alone, this is quite substantially better than typical shinto wakizashi. I would try in the very least to paper it with NTHK (as is), if that's gimei there is a chance they'll tell you in work papers what they think it is.

[Juggernaut]

Yea I might do that just have to find out if I wanna do it right now or wait for a little bit and do it later!!

 

 

Chris

[Jean]

Chris,

 

[Darcy]

Based on Chris' example posted you can pretty much count on the first two characters being gimei. Best you're going to hope for now is that the rest might be the father's signature and someone "upgraded" it (going back and checking father's signature it is not a good match). I didn't extensively study any of it but glanced at a few others after looking at Chris' and they seem to be pretty uniform.

 

So I think you're looking at gimei for all of it as the most likely outcome here, hope at best that the first two characters are an upgraded add on. The first character is just uncharacteristically fat. There is a bit of variation where each of the other characters can be found to kind of be close to a certain example somewhere but when you find yourself starting to make "maybe" arguments to try to include a signature of Shinkai, Kotetsu, etc., into the group of good examples, you (we, me) are probably going in the wrong direction.

 

You should fully investigate it though to be sure.

 

You have the sayagaki upside down so it will help everyone if you flip it around the correct way then nobody has to flip their screen

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

My first and last comment.

 

Based on Chris' example posted you can pretty much count on the first two characters being gimei.

 

Not to say that sword is genuine but Chris and you are wrong (as usual) basing your opinion on a single example.

 

From Shinkai taikan

 

 

[Darcy]

Hi,

 

My first and last comment.

 

Not to say that sword is genuine but Chris and you are wrong (as usual) basing your opinion on a single example.

 

From Shinkai taikan

 

 

Your reading comprehension skills fail (as usual). Go back and read (carefully, I know it is hard) what I wrote because I did not base my opinion on one example.

 

I know though that your own personal skills are maximized in the area of causing disturbances which is what brought you to your previous exit from the board (and perhaps your swift repeat departure).

 

If you had anything to add you could make a statement of your opinion on the signature. It's interesting to see opinions like this that want to say that someone is wrong in calling a signature gimei yet you are not prepared to call it sho-shin. Talk about having your cake and eating it too

[Darcy]

Too fat.

[cabowen]

I didn't give an opinion Jacques, I just provided a valid example for comparison. There is considerable variation in this smith's signature as your references show but certain points (not related to the signature) for evaluation are fairly consistent and thus there is something to learn from even a single valid example.

 

Here is my opinion: the left vertical stroke of the 井　"i" kanji has a rather uncharacteristic sharp hook to the left at the bottom in addition to being rather broad in total. The 上 (ue) is also a bit clumsy in comparison to the rest of the signature. This gives me pause and thus judged by the signature alone, I couldn't say with confidence that the signature is valid.

 

Comparing the workmanship to what I have seen from Shinkai, the hada appears larger and rougher, the nie, a step or so below in quality.

 

In total, I would lean towards gimei though it isn't the usual obvious fake. With the variability in this smiths work from start to finish, and without having the sword in hand, I would recommend shinsa as well.

[Brian]

Jacques,

You were suspended for many months, and have remained dormant since.

Wish I could say welcome back. But for the life of me, I can never figure out why you cannot bring youself to type something like:

"Darcy and Chris, I respectfully disagree, based on only one example..please have a look at the following XXXX and for the following reasons XXXX"

 

What on earth compells you to write your opionions the way you did? There are at least 50 non-offensive ways to make a point. You don't do yourself any favours by constantly forcing the troll call. You know that being polite won't ruin your "rep" right? You don't have to be the James Dean Bad Boy.

I really hope you will give this some thought. Not that you did last time, but really....debate is welcomed here. Even by Darcy and Chris. But not the way you do it. I forsee a short visit.

 

Brian

[Darcy]

I completely agree with Chris. I think putting the first character in context with the taikan examples (thanks for that) shows how awkward it looks in comparison to the real thing. It's this awkwardness that stands out when you flip through a few of the legit ones. There is usually something about the fluidity of someone who is doing something by their own nature that does not translate over to someone trying to replicate it.

 

I had my parents in Thailand recently and I got my mother signed into a Thai cooking class. After I commented that someone who has never eaten Thai food made by a Thai in Thailand, who just downloads a recipe from the internet and tries to follow it, they are kind of attempting to reverse engineer something that they don't have any direct experience with knowing exactly how it is done.

 

A recipe is just a sketch to follow to try to replicate something. There is not enough information to really make it legitimately and without direct experience there's no ability to refine the result to home in on the target. Someone who is trying to fake a signature or a sword never saw how the real maker made it and faces a similar problem. Though they may have that finished product to work with, without the instructions at hand, that finished product is also a sketch, from which they try to reverse engineer and duplicate the results. They are two sides of the coin really and you need both sides if you want to fully replicate it, instructions/method/recipe, and direct experience with the finished product to guide you.

 

Otherwise you end up with something that is a simulation, that may fool other people without direct experience. In the case of a restaurant serving Canadians that may be good enough.

 

There is a science to looking at mei and the strokes and the angle of the chisel and all of that that can be documented, taught, and then walked through step by step looking at a book like you are painting by numbers and getting a conclusion.

 

But there is also the aesthetic which is equally important. Aesthetic is something that you absorb from experiencing the real thing long enough. It's how you taste a Thai dish made in Toronto and you know that person has no idea what it is really supposed to taste like, but you know because you'd spent a month backpacking around Thailand and sampling regional cuisine until it is embedded. So it counts and that for me is where I felt this thing did not fit in without counting strokes and measuring angles.

 

When it's stuck in there with the rest of them, as Chris points out there's that odd shaped hook at the bottom left of the first character, and my own impression of it being fat means that the size of the square is a lot larger relatively than the length of the strokes that extend from it.

 

When you see just one example that is legit beside one example that is fake, it's the fluidity and natural feeling that should pop out so it is indeed illustrative.

 

Ideally then this applies to putting say a Rai copy beside a real Rai blade. With just one example of both we should be able to say which is the real deal and which is the copy, if we have internalized the aesthetics. This of course will fail when you get to guys who copy it so closely that their work would fit into the body of the school proper. But, if it doesn't, then it should flag itself with a red flag. Just with one example of both and some general middle level experience on the part of the viewer.

 

So yes, one example can be meaningful. Conclusive is another story but this is NMB and our opinions were asked, this thread is not issuing papers. It should go in and be examined and hope held out for a positive result. My opinion is that it's no good but as always I'm prepared to be wrong and it would be nice for the owner if it is legitimate.

[nihonto1001]

Jacques,

You were suspended for many months, and have remained dormant since.

Wish I could say welcome back.

 

Being American, I hold Freedom of Speech as a very important concept. In fact, it is the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution. So go ahead an hate, Jacques...

 

Carry on. :lol:

[Gabriel L]

Even assuming (as I do) that the mei is gimei as-is… the blade still looks pretty dang nice IMHO.

[cabowen]

You can compare signatures all day long with photos in meikan but It is very difficult to judge the validity of a mei without considerable study, knowledge and experience with the written language if the attempt is in earnest. Most of the experts I know in Japan can usually spot a gimei without consulting a meikan because they have written and read Japanese their whole lives. They know when a signature has hesitancy, lacks fluidity, power, confidence, etc. There is more to it than how the kanji are shaped...I have even been told a signature was gimei once because it was "too perfect"!!!

[Darcy]

Jacques,

You were suspended for many months, and have remained dormant since.

Wish I could say welcome back.

 

Being American, I hold Freedom of Speech as a very important concept. In fact, it is the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution. So go ahead an hate, Jacques...

 

Carry on. :lol:

 

The most basic form of trolling, yelling fire in a crowded theatre, is not protected speech, nor is speech meant to incite others to violence (another form of trolling!)

 

Not that any of it applies anyway outside of limiting the power of the US government over its citizens. But now we digress further, such are the ripples caused by the expert troll post in otherwise calm waters...

[Jean]

Trolling can be a bad hobbit whatever Tolkien could have said :D