Little help required

[DirkO]

Hi all,

 

This is my first post here Like most of you I've been intruiged with katanas for some time now. I've read some books about it (the more i read about it, the more interesting it gets) and I've finally decided to take the step to buy one. Now the one I'm interested in, is the following :

 

 

Length (+ saya) : 108,5cm

Length (-saya) : 105,5cm

Length of saya : 79cm

Length of tsuka : 29cm

Length of blade : 76,3cm (blade is signed, but i can just make out the date and not the signature)

Length of katana without tsuka : 93cm

Length of Kozuka and Kogai : about 20cm's each (10cm blade)

 

Now if it is authentic and the tang hasn't been added on later, it should be from the 3rd year of Meiji, being 1871. The fact that the kozuka and kogai are included is also a nice feat. Bearing in mind that I still need to go onsite to have a close inspection of the item, I'd like to ask you, as people who are more experienced with these kind of things, the following :

 

What should I be paying particular attention to when inspecting it onsite ?

What would be a fair price to pay for this katana ?

 

thx a lot for your help !!!!

[Thekirsh]

Hi Zanchin,

I would wait for a few expert opinions from the board before buying as it looks like a chinese copy to me.

Simon

[sencho]

I wouldn't go near it Zanchin... definitely looks like a Chinese fake!!!!

 

What ebay seller is it?? Look up the definitions of KOGAI too.... I wouldn't want to clean my ears out with that!!

 

Don't even bother looking at anything that is coming from China... It is all garbage

 

Cheers

[mike yeon]

I agree with everyone else. It's 100% a chinese fake. Not worth the gas you'd spend on seeing it in person.

 

There's a good link on this site that gives you the basics on detecting a fake. My advice is to look at as many real blades as possible (in books on the net or in person) and that will give you a better eye at detecting fakes.

 

Learn as much as you can before you buy. You'll be thanking yourself later.

 

Best of luck.

 

mike

[trygve]

This is one of the better chinese fakes out there. But if one looks closely on the details you will see that they are poorly made. The details make real nihonto and only Japanese craftmen can produce and these details thats makes the unique Japanese feel and quality. The best way to learn is to look at many real swords first hand. Than you will learn to spot the real among the many fakes.

 

PS! when buying over the internet- alway ask for detailed photos of the blade. on these photos you can not see if there is hamon, hada or serious flaws (cracks, lack of hamon etc)

 

if you decide to buy a sword before looking at real sword first, be sure to ask someone experienced for help.

 

regards

trygve

[Ed Harbulak]

Although this sword and fittings look very impressive at first glance, as mentioned in the other posts, the details and workmanship are just not there. The very fact that it is so fancy or gaudy, is in itself a warning sign of it being a fake. The first picture you posted showing the handle wrapping is totally wrong for a Japanese sword. Who ever wrapped this handle has never seen a properly wrapped Japanese sword handle, or if he saw one, wasn't able to copy it correctly. Although it may look O.K. to the untrained eye, it is in fact very poorly done with sloppy over lapping, too loosely tied "knots" and the cross overs do not alternate as they should. As some of the others on this board have suggested, look at real Japanese swords in both books and in person before purchasing one and DO NOT purchase this one. Take your time, there really is no hurry, as the old saying goes: Haste makes waste. Good luck.

Ed

[Mark Green]

Very fancy fake at that!!!

Sorry dude, don't pay real money for this one.

Does the seller claim that this is 'real' Nihonto?

If so, please post his name and ebay name.

Ask if you can pay fake money for it

Mark G

[Bungo]

at least the rider keeps his head...................( and not holding a matsutake )

that's about it.

Buy if you are into re-pro.

 

p.s. " Ask if you can pay fake money for it ".............dude, Read from Reuter news or N.Y. Times, U.S. Dollares may drop 20 % ( or 40 % in worst case scenerio ), what a mess, just like the Justice Dept. ( again )

p.p.s. better offer to trade with matsutake mushrooms.

 

milt the ronin

[DirkO]

hmmmm Looking at the hefty reactions, I think I'll reconsider. Thx a lot guys for not making me spend a lot of money on something that isn't genuine. It's like one of you said : there's no hurry, a real katana is worth the wait. Trouble is, I'm from Belgium and there aren't too many collectors around, so it's hard to gain experience with the real deal except from books. Good thing I found these forums Saves me around 800€ !!!!

[Jean]

Hi Zanshin,

 

Please, do not forget to sign your post.

 

If you want to learn some thinh about Nihonto/repros, go to the on-line bible:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esteinrl/nihonto.htm

 

GO TO THE "COMMERCIAL SITES IN ENGLISH II" You have can see hundred of swords and can make comparison

 

Now, let's talk about your sword :

 

- Look at the tang butt (Nakago jiri) and compare it to the example given in books (abd Dr Stein website), there is no visible tapering and the butt finish seems wrong

 

- Look at the signature (meo), it is perfectly aligned on the ridge line (shinogi), compare to thswords on commercial sites, you'll never see any real mei done this way. Except on hirazukuri blade (flat side) or Ken (symetrical blade with a ridge line in the middle) mei on shinogi zukuri blades are done on the flat upper part of the blade (Shinogi Ji)

 

No close-up pictures of the blade and we do not see any yokote (ridge line separating the point of the blade - kissaki - from the rest of the blade).

 

Now for the ornaments - fuchi/kashira - Tsuba - kogai/Kozuka/Kogatana - they look brand new - bad carving - flashy. Everything smells wrong

 

In fact, what you should do is :

 

- Select a sword you are interested in buying

- compare it from tip to top to all swords you can see on the reliable commercial sites (cf Dr Steins weblink)

 

Then initiate a post in NMB, and tell us the reasons you think the blade is genuine or not, then we can discuss about it and give you further information. That is the way to learn.

 

To give you a price indication, presuming the blade is genuine, the kodogu/tosogu (Fittings) are genuine (all matching) it could go over 10k$..

 

 

Last advice, STAY CLEAR FROM E-BAY - Except of course for NMB members auctions.:lol: :lol:

 

Stephen has, on behalf of one of his friends, put some real nice/bargain swords to sell on the "NMB sales page. Look at them. Free advertising

:D :D

[DirkO]

Merci Jean,

 

I think that this was a lesson I was due to learn, thank god it didn't cost me any money. On a bright note, I found this forum and there seems to be an overwhelming amount of expertise and info on it. This will help me gain experience and knowledge, and hopefully avoid mistakes in the future.

[Sasaki_Kojiro]

Hi Zanshin

where in Belgium exactely are you located? I suggest contacting Zenon Van Damme. He is a sword polisher, living in Bruges, respected and reliable. He will be able to sell you the 'real deal'.

[Wim V]

Trouble is, I'm from Belgium and there aren't too many collectors around, so it's hard to gain experience with the real deal except from books.

 

Hi there,

 

I am also from Belgium, and I know there are a few more Belgian members on this board. I don't know in which region in Belgium you live, but there is in fact a to-ken club which has a meeting every first friday of the month in Antwerp. I have been a member there for nearly one year and a half and I can say I gained lots of experience over there. There are some serious people with quite nice collections, which gives you the chance to learn from seeing good swords in hand and discussing them.

 

If you would be interested to come by and attend an evening, you are welcome to send me a PM, so I can give you the details where to find it. Next meeting will be friday 7 september.

 

Furthermore, I am sure there are some more nihonto collectors in Belgium. I have heard talking of some people who meet in Brussels from time to time but unfortunately I don't know any of them.

 

Kind regards,

 

Wim

[DirkO]

Aaah the Belgians are coming out of the woodwork

 

I'm from Hoeselt, near Hasselt in Limburg. Another question I have for you guys is : Is it easy to import something like a katana through customs ? I mean, I use japanauctioncenter for loads of things, but a katana seems a bit risky, no ?

 

Something else I was thinking about : Jean told me to stay clear of Ebay auctions, except the ones from members. But how do i spot those. If you guys would use something like "NMB" in the description on Ebay, it would be very easy for everyone to spot the auctions from NMB members.

[Jean]

Hi Dirk,

 

In the NMB "For Sale/Trade/Wanted" or "Sale/Auction" sections, NMB members advertised when they put something on e-bay or in auction or simply have something to sale (with the link).

 

I have seen today a lovely Higo sword (Dotanuki school) with a sayagaki by one of the former head of NBTHK.

[sencho]

Dirk,

 

Historian333 is a ebay seller of genuine nihonto... not an NMB member, but I am sure he looks... his range varies from very expensive pieces to rusty old projects, but all are genuine nihonto unless he specifies...

 

He is an honest and trustworthy seller.... here is his store... watch for new stuff coming up as he has nice peices that sell for 1,000 to 4,000 US dollars...

 

I bought an exquisite wakasashi off him for around 1,200 USD a year ago...

 

http://stores.ebay.com/historian33383_W ... esstQQtZkm

 

by the way... if you see what looks to be a beautiful sword and koshirae for a buy it now price of less than 500 dolars be immediately very suspicious.... if I see anything listed from China or Hong Kong, I immediately ignore it.

 

Look at the links above for sword dealers and check out their stock online... even if it is just for educational purposes..

 

Cheers

[DirkO]

Hi Zanshin

where in Belgium exactely are you located? I suggest contacting Zenon Van Damme. He is a sword polisher, living in Bruges, respected and reliable. He will be able to sell you the 'real deal'.

 

I contacted Zénon and he was just back from a trip to France, where he was supposed to appraise someone's collection. Turned out every single one of them was a chinese knock off. Well at least I'm not the only one this happens to Zénon invited me over to have a look at his collection, and his site sure does look 100% authentic. He also asked me what kind of Katana I was looking for (end Edo, start of Meiji era) and what I was looking to spend on it. So I think I'll try to meet up at his house and learn as much as I can. Apparently he has quite the collection at home :D http://www.japaneseart.be

[DirkO]

Dirk,

 

Historian333 is a ebay seller of genuine nihonto... not an NMB member, but I am sure he looks... his range varies from very expensive pieces to rusty old projects, but all are genuine nihonto unless he specifies...

 

Cheers

 

Thx Sencho Although the blades are somewhat out of my reach, he also have a lot of nice books, and the one about the Edo exhibit is especially interesting to me. I'll try to go with Jean's view, that you have to look at a lot of Katanas before you can assess their true value

 

I saw our esteemed site admin, Brian, made a post about books for beginners. I had a look at it and to my surprise I have those exact books :D Well except one, but still ...

 

I must say, I almost struck out with the chinese repro swindler, but now my learning and passion for the katana is growing exponentially thx you guys !!!

[BC Smith]

Hi Dirk, with regards to books and your now insatiable appetite to learn more about Nihinto don't forget a book entitled Japanese Swords of the Bizen Tradition by our one and only Darcy it's available at a really affordable price, but I must warn you this book is highly addictive, I've read it through once and am a quarter of the way through it again and just can't put it down. :lol:

 

Find details for Darcys book here

http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessa ... php?t=1522

 

 

Bernie

[Darcy]

Buy many!

 

To be fair the book would be impossible and mediocre if I did it by myself, Bob Benson does the evaluation of swords not Juyo, the original research and items of knowledge from his own experience, and of course oshigata. I do grunt work, research, prose and everything technical (photography, layout, design).

[BC Smith]

Hi Darcy your being very modest, but my huge apologies for forgetting to mention Bob Benson who deserves the same huge credit for a great publication, I mean this sincerely because most books on the subject I tend to read a couple of chapters then put the book down for a few days before returning to it but yours and Bobs book I just keep on reading, on the second lap now!

 

 

Bernie

[DirkO]

You've won me over Bernie and Darcy But when I tried to buy it, the lulu shop wouldn't let me, it kept crashing. Tried everything, but once I get to the payment bit, it kept crashing on me Ah well, I'll try later on. Together with Grey's Hawleys this should make some nice reference work...

 

Update : finally able to order the book