tsuba bothering me

Mantis dude · October 22, 2014

this link was sent to me and at first glance I thought hmm not bad but it started bothering me what do you guys think?

http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b162793820

nagamaki - Franco · October 22, 2014

it started bothering me

Learning to listen to yourself is a good thing.

Brian · October 22, 2014

What is worrying you? I don't see anything odd except the condition, and I don't think it was redone. Just really well preserved. Not cast, not modern.

Looks like a nice item to me.

Brian

John A Stuart · October 22, 2014

Well, a nice looking Mino (Goto) shakudo tsuba. Very good shape, late period, price is good so far. I think it is good. John

nagamaki - Franco · October 22, 2014

Gents, please educate me here as I don't see quality?

Stephen · October 22, 2014

Franco ya thinking some thing for the kitchen? maybe hold down a recipe?

Ed · October 22, 2014

Curious as to what is bothering you and Franco. Perhaps either of you could elaborate ?

Maybe not the best tsuba ever seen, but looks legit to me. Like John said, Mino Goto in shakudo, price is good as of now. Though with 15 bidders currently bidding, that won't last, I suspect it will go up a bit before finishing. It's not like flea-bay where when its over it's over. Every time someone bids within the last few remaining minutes, more time is added. This can go on for some time and generally does.

sanjuro · October 22, 2014

Guys.

I'm not an expert on tsuba, and Goto generally doesn't appeal to me anyhow, but I dont think this looks quite right either. Too modern? Not quite sure but the little voice in my head is saying that something is not as it may seem. Just for the sake of the discussion I wish someone would set my mind at rest about this. As far as Stephen's comment goes.....

Franco ya thinking some thing for the kitchen? maybe hold down a recipe?

I'm leaning more toward nihontophile beer mat.

John A Stuart · October 23, 2014

The only thing that I see being wrong here is it may be very late as in newly made. The tagane show fresh copper colour as if punched recently and it is just so unblemished. So, not antique, but, a legitimate tsuba by a contemporary tsubako. John

bone · October 23, 2014

John, would someone this talented really make a tsuba this fantastic this freaking beautiful and not sign it? Surely you sign all of yours? Just wondering.

John A Stuart · October 23, 2014

Although there are signed Minobori fittings, they are notorius for not signing their work. John

bone · October 23, 2014

New knowledge. Thank you friend! Now no one has asked but even as a modern tsuba, what would you value this at? Please PM me if you're not comfortable saying in general.

Thanks again!

Jean · October 23, 2014

Steve,

That' s the meaningless question to ask. It has been asked thousand times on the Board and the answer is always the same.

Have you got an idea of what is worth a modern tsuba? No one can answer as long as he has not hold it/study it, tried to assess who is the maker, the quality .... Can range from a few hundred bucks to thousands. Have a look at Ford's tsuba prices.

I'll give you the answer nevertheless:

What someone is ready to pay for it and you will have the answer at the end of the auction

This kind of question makes me think of this small riddle:

Steve,

Can you tell me how long does it take to a USM1 rifle barrel to cool after shooting?

Here is the answer:

A certain time....

nagamaki - Franco · October 23, 2014

Perhaps either of you could elaborate ?

thing that I see being wrong here is it may be very late as in newly made

Have not said not legit, but as John points out ..... plus, imho, workmanship is poor.

Franco ya thinking some thing for the kitchen? maybe hold down a recipe?

Ha! As amusing as it might be I'm staying out of the kitchen on this one. Office desk paper weight

Ed · October 23, 2014

I would like to know what bothers you Ken ? It would make addressing your concerns much easier. You think it is a Chinese made, modern made, not shakudo, ?????

Looking at it again, I still think it is a legitimate Japanese Tsuba (never used the word antique).

Is it old ie; Ko-Mino? NO, I don't think anyone here is that confused.

Is it newly made or relatively new(Meji - Showa) ? Probably so, at least a very good possibility. The ad states "Late Edo", but we have learned over the course of history that the human beast will stray from the truth when cornered or in need of money.

Is it of poor quality? I suppose that is a matter of opinion. Workmanship looks ok. Would I be interested in owning it, No.

Is it a high quality tsuba? Not in my opinion, but flea-bay has pages and pages of low quality legitimate tsuba which sell day in and day out, which doesn't seem to "bother" anyone. Most of which are nothing more than junk. How many are bought and then shown here on NMB looking for praise and accolades on the purchase of a new or first tsuba? No one has the heart to say POS.

For no other reason than curiosity, I would really like to know your thoughts Franco, Stephen ??

When you guys call it a paper weight, is it because you think it is not an antique, due poor workmanship/quality, not made in Japan, or you simply don't like it ????? No harm in sharing your rationale.

nagamaki - Franco · October 23, 2014

When you guys call it a paper weight, is it because you think it is not an antique, due poor workmanship/quality, not made in Japan, or you simply don't like it ?????

Ed, let me turn your question around, where is the art in this tsuba? At least to this pair of eyes it looks like someone was in a big hurry from start to finish in the detail work, not one, not one flower or insect or nanako or detail makes me sit back and say, oh, gee, look at that workmanship, that quality. So, then, what's the point? Nihonto, is not about mediocrity.

And as for paper weight, my words, like Curly used to say, "Oh, a wise guy!"

Mantis dude · October 23, 2014

Sorry Guys , I wanted to check messages but my neck had other ideas for me and it decided it didn't want me on the computer at all. I purposely left off my issues just to see what others said a lot of my questions probably could have been answered if I was holding it in person.

The age was certainly an issue. And I wasn't so sure this was shakudo, I have seen blackened iron pieces that looked more like the piece. I even question Mino attribution and wanted to do more research but neck didn't want me looking at books either. The insect designs are not something I have seen in the mino style. in fact I know of a sukashi piece that has insects more like that I would put in the kyo something category or even I have seen echizan insects (there are a few non dragons) that have that design quality to them. Yes the initial impression in Mino but their are big stylistic differences that at first perhaps I didn't verbalize to myself but became more apparent to me as I thought about the piece. the searching I was able to do didn't change my mind.

The last issue I had and I felt kind of weak on this one but a lot of insects legs/antennae, plant stems have these marks that I could see coming from casting. There is one insect that has a back done almost in the round (sort of looks like a tennis ball divided into three sections). The dividing marks didn't look crisp as I would expect. I was almost thinking that the piece could have been molded in parts and stuck on the plate. So there were a lot of issues that I was questioning and figured I ask to the group.

As a side note A more traditional mino piece but with large mantis (most likely mid to late edo) just went for 126,000 yen the other day and this went for half that I believe. Anyway thanks for the feedback on what you guys thought. Neck is chiming in saying ok you had enough so I will get off the computer for now.

Ed · October 23, 2014

Franco,

So you didn't like it related to the lack of quality. Thats fine, I didn't either. Ken asked about it and you stated it was a paper weight. I simply wondered what you meant by that. If you had said you didn't like it due to the low quality seen in the workmanship to begin with I would not have questioned you.

You don't need to turn my question around, just read my previous post. I clearly stated I didn't think much of the quality nor would I be interested in owning it.

However, opinions vary and apparently there were people who did like it enough to bid on it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

nagamaki - Franco · October 24, 2014

Ken asked about it and you stated it was a paper weight.

Ed, please read more carefully in the future, you're misplacing my replies, my half-ass comment about a paper weight is not as you say to Ken's inquiry, not that it matters at this point.

kusunokimasahige · October 24, 2014

A paper weight in tsuba collector's terms is something which is only useful as a paper weight.

That can be a fake tsuba, a stone in the shape of a tsuba or an okimono in the shape of a tsuba.

Meaning is : Not worth the effort.

You could also call it a door stopper.

KM

Ed · October 24, 2014

Ha! As amusing as it might be I'm staying out of the kitchen on this one. Office desk paper weight
my half-ass comment about a paper weight is not as you say to Ken's inquiry

Not sure how I misinterpreted / misplaced your statement above, but to me it reads "paper weight"!

I would think any post contained in this particular thread would be related to the original inquiry.

A paper weight in tsuba collector's terms is something which is only useful as a paper weight. Meaning is : Not worth the effort.

Really!

The point of my post was not to give praise to the tsuba in question, nor to speak of it with disdain. It appeared to me along with others here a legitimate tsuba, nothing more nothing less. No, it may not meet the expectations of some in regards to their personal expectation of quality, others may find it worthy of their taste.

The point I was trying to get to is that terms like paper weight or door stop serves no real purpose. I can see a newbie shaking his head wondering, "ok, they are implying this tsuba is bad, but why?"

Franco, you have a lot of knowledge in this field. When I questioned you, I was in hope that you would share some useful insight or rationale to your observations and opinion, which would be a much greater service to the members here, especially newer members. That's all I was getting at.

I'm out.

Brian · October 24, 2014

Don't be out. I agree with you

I still don't think this tsuba is bad at all, and I don't think the workmanship is bad either. The nanako was not cast in, and are very well done. The features appear to be fairly well done. Not masterpiece at all, but not a sub-$500 tsuba either.

If the main objection is the outstanding condition, we have become too synical. Perhaps it is Meiji or later, but far better than most of the junk we see posted.

If the technique and workmanship in carving is to be criticised, we have better re-evaluate 80% of the old iron and kinko works out there.

I wish Ford would comment. But I for one think this one deserves better than a "paperweight" call, and definitely some anaysis of the opinions.

Brian

Stephen · October 24, 2014

I think we shouldnt look at it so close.

nagamaki - Franco · October 24, 2014

Quote:Ha! As amusing as it might be I'm staying out of the kitchen on this one. Office desk paper weight my half-ass comment about a paper weight is not as you say to Ken's inquiryNot sure how I misinterpreted / misplaced your statement above, but to me it reads "paper weight"!I would think any post contained in this particular thread would be related to the original inquiry.

Ed, Stephen was baiting me into a previous (light hearted, at least that is how I take it), conversation, where we were throwing darts at each other, sarcasm, not serious, serious. Do you see the , its' cartoonish! Must we be sober all the time on this forum, have we gotten to the point where there's no room for humor or jest?

Franco, you have a lot of knowledge in this field. When I questioned you, I was in hope that you would share some useful insight or rationale to your observations and opinion, which would be a much greater service to the members here, especially newer members. That's all I was getting at.

A lot of knowledge, no, only wish I did when it comes to tsuba, am not even close to the knowledge of many of the enthusiasts on this forum. That aside, what I have is a good eye for art and quality of materials, neither of which can be easily fooled. One of my most basic litmus tests for fittings including tsuba is if the work is truly good, the detail will still look exceptional under any magnification. The Japanese have a saying that "bad swords hurt your eyes", this applies to tosogu, and collectors would do well to keep this saying at the forefront of making choices and learn what it means. Collector or accumulator?

sanjuro · October 24, 2014

If I can play devil's advocate here for a moment. I am after all what is most kindly referred to as a tsuba ignoramus, which qualifies me to state the obvious and make stupid observations, yet still be forgiven.

What i see in this tsuba, and what first I noticed is the raggy finish where the zogan 'dew' drops on the leaf coincide with the surface. The rather crude finish to the dragonfly's legs which have been left squared instead of carved in the round as the rest of the creature is. These things are not in keeping with a quality piece particularly since it is supposed to be a newer tsuba and therefore if the general condition is to be taken into account, more crisp than we would observe in an older worn piece. Art and the way in which something is rendered is always open to interpretation, but this seems to have been intended to be a lifelike representation. If this is so, then it is crude and less acceptably so since it is apparently modern.

Modern doesnt usually have wide appeal because we cant mentally ascribe any wabi or sabi value to the piece. It is what it is and cannot hide behind age and condition. We aren't really used to that. Perhaps I am a little jaded, but in this case I jest because it is probably true.

Anyone else?? Dont be shy to shoot me down.

Thierry BERNARD · October 25, 2014

IWhat i see in this tsuba, and what first I noticed is the raggy finish where the zogan 'dew' drops on the leaf coincide with the surface. The rather crude finish to the dragonfly's legs which have been left squared instead of carved in the round as the rest of the creature is. These things are not in keeping with a quality piece particularly since it is supposed to be a newer tsuba and therefore if the general condition is to be taken into account, more crisp than we would observe in an older worn piece.

sanjuro · October 26, 2014

I'm glad you find my observation amusing Mr Bernard. However, It was not meant to be. I dont see the connection with the artwork you posted, but then again I dont really expect respect for my opinion, nor it appears should I expect a sensible or appropriate response. I should not have bothered to comment in the first instance.

Although i did invite being shot down, I did not expect to be laughed at. Perhaps you should take into consideration that there is nothing to be learned from ridicule.

Thierry BERNARD · October 26, 2014

Hi Keith

I apologize if I offended or ridiculize you , believe me it absolutely wasn't my intention, I just found funny associating modern art with soft lines or rafined detail!

I find this tsuba very well done, if you look at the detail of the flowers you see that the tsubashi is skilled, and the way mantis , bug and dragonfly

are carved is in perfect concordance with Mino (Goto) style.

so my goal is :if a skilled tsubashi carve the dragonfly this way, it's intentionally to match the style of his school

PS : by the way, keep in mind that english isn't our native language, and that we are not necessary very fluent with foreign language, sometime our words not necessary follow our mind

Brian · October 26, 2014

Keith

I think you need to lighten up a bit. Especially with members who have been here for years, as you have been, and can easily be seen to be polite and helpful like Thierry. Too many people taking offense lately, and turning light hearted debates into serious bickering.

I understood his point easily and his laughter at his own example, not you.

He is correct about the workmanship on this tsuba too. It fits the school and style imho, and is not bad workmanship at all. Just look at the nanako spacing.

Brian

kusunokimasahige · October 26, 2014

Let me simplify this for all of you.

Like it ? Buy it.

Do not like it ? Stay away.

KM

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