Honjo Masamune found!! (well almost... maybe)

[robinalexander]

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Every time someone comes up with the Honjo Masamune and is not even trying to show us the blade.

[David Flynn]

I don't think he's coming back.

[Brian]

Already have his name and address. Don't worry, I have no plans to sell or divulge your info. Sword isn't anything we here would send mercenaries after anyways

[NewB]

👋 

 

How many Masamune blades are known to exist and how many are missing? 

 

Cheers

 

J.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

That is an interesting question John . In 1719 the Shogun had the Honami family prepare a catalogue of famous swords . This is the Kyoho Meibutsu Cho . The book Zusetsu Token Meibutsu Cho  ( Tsujimoto 1970 ) is an illustrated version of this . The Kyoho Meibutsu Cho lists about 38 swords that are  by Masamune ( including three long blades ) together with a further eighteen blades ( two of which are long blades ) that have been through  fires .

 

None of these five long swords are signed . The leading sword scholar Albert Yamanaka wrote that  " there are no long swords known to exist today that are signed " . Yamanaka wrote that only three of the short swords had signatures that were considered  " to be the true inscription of this smith " .  Niel probably wonders why people piled onto his sword .  This is the main reason , there are NO known long swords signed by Masamune that are genuine, nor were there any in 1719 so far as the Honami were concerned !!

 

Not all Masamune swords are however listed in the Meibutsu Cho. If you wanted an accurate answer to your question you would need to go through the lists of National Treasure, Juyo Bunkazai and Juyo Bijutsuhin swords and extract all of the Masamune listed there . Jussi Ekholm has published these listings in the articles section . You would also need to extract all of the Masamune that are either Tokubetsu Juyo or Juyo rated . Again Jussi has provided an index to all of the Juyo volumes . I am not aware of an index to the Tokubetsu Juyo swords .

 

Once you did all of this the problem would arise that the National treasure , Juyo Bunkazai and Juyo Bijutsuhin classifications are Government rankings wheras the Juyo and Tokubetsu Juyo classifications are NBTHK rankings . Some swords will double up and be say both Juyo Bijutsuhin and Tokubetsu Juyo at the same time . You will also have a further complication where the sword is Den Masamune ( see Darcy's article on this problem ) . It would be a big task.

 

So far as I am aware the only missing Masamune, other than some of those that went through fires ,  is the Honjo Masamune .This sword  was a pre war National treasure and is now Juyo Bunkazai .

 

Ian Brooks

[Jussi Ekholm]

Unfortunately I don't yet have the book that Ian mentioned in above post but I will get it eventually, as it will be very interesting book.

 

If you count all of the blades that I have found so far that are attributed towards Masamune (be it by den attribution, kinzōgan etc. that are authenticated by Government bodies, NBTHK or Museums, Shrines etc.), the number so far is 103 (there are 5 Jūyō blades that I do not yet have the books for). So it would be at least 108. Out of those at least 43 would be named swords (+1 Jūyō that I am missing). Even more of them could be named but I have not yet encountered their names in any references.

[NewB]

Well, I'm thankful for your insight. Also, I'm thankful that @Ray Singerposted the oshigata of the missing one. The journey continues 

 

Out of curiosity, what happens if the blade is found?

 

Cheers

 

J.

 

 

[David Flynn]

Someone could be become rich.

[Wah]

Ok Darkcon ,

I'll answer your question. 

"What happens if the blade is found?"

 

One who is not part of the research team chosen by Tokugawa's are not allowed to discover it. It can only be officially discovered in Japan by the chosen team. There are people in that team that include a well known Tokyo dealer, and one who used to lead exhibitions at N.Y. Met. Yeah, you know...

There is a claim against Honjo it if recognized in Japan so the American owner can only surrender it if taken and recognized. It would be up to the Japanese owner if you get a reward, though I am 99.999% sure there is none since an actual description has never been released by their family. 

Their main intention is that no one can know its identity. It's like the Imperial Regalia according to books.

 

Still want to find it? Do you know the details? Do you know the secret clues? 

 

If you do find it, you'll show a sword to the Japanese owner like I did in 2003.

 

And they'll say, Awe, theres a problem. "According to record, H.M. has no mei. I'm sorry your sword was not found to be H.M." " take it to our team expert in NYC Met museum if you wish to find out what you have." 

I didn't take it. Why should I?

 

Then later on T.V. documentary, owner says the person who has it won't let anyone see it. Lol! 

 

My sword had a Mei..a mei that is special but still a Masamune Mei.

Much later in 2020, One of the Tokugawa research team wrote about the event. He said the Americans sword was Zaimei no M.M. 

 

Mmmmm......So I have a perfect twin to Honjo sword but Honjo is not signed, so its not the missing Masamune. Great!

Well maybe there are other Masamune swords to discover! Lol! Not!

 

Trust me, run! Enjoy your life. Get out, walk your dog. If you want a good sword, buy something beautiful like a Norishige. Let a terrific fellow like Ray Singer or Ted Tenold to teach you. Then buy something nice. 

 

All the best fellas

Stephen T.

[Guest Simon R]

3 hours ago, Wah said:

Ok Darkcon ,

I'll answer your question. 

"What happens if the blade is found?"

 

One who is not part of the research team chosen by Tokugawa's are not allowed to discover it. It can only be officially discovered in Japan by the chosen team. There are people in that team that include a well known Tokyo dealer, and one who used to lead exhibitions at N.Y. Met. Yeah, you know...

There is a claim against Honjo it if recognized in Japan so the American owner can only surrender it if taken and recognized. It would be up to the Japanese owner if you get a reward, though I am 99.999% sure there is none since an actual description has never been released by their family. 

Their main intention is that no one can know its identity. It's like the Imperial Regalia according to books.

 

Still want to find it? Do you know the details? Do you know the secret clues? 

 

If you do find it, you'll show a sword to the Japanese owner like I did in 2003.

 

And they'll say, Awe, theres a problem. "According to record, H.M. has no mei. I'm sorry your sword was not found to be H.M." " take it to our team expert in NYC Met museum if you wish to find out what you have." 

I didn't take it. Why should I?

 

Then later on T.V. documentary, owner says the person who has it won't let anyone see it. Lol! 

 

My sword had a Mei..a mei that is special but still a Masamune Mei.

Much later in 2020, One of the Tokugawa research team wrote about the event. He said the Americans sword was Zaimei no M.M. 

 

Mmmmm......So I have a perfect twin to Honjo sword but Honjo is not signed, so its not the missing Masamune. Great!

Well maybe there are other Masamune swords to discover! Lol! Not!

 

Trust me, run! Enjoy your life. Get out, walk your dog. If you want a good sword, buy something beautiful like a Norishige. Let a terrific fellow like Ray Singer or Ted Tenold to teach you. Then buy something nice. 

 

All the best fellas

Stephen T.

Oh Lord, I was wondering when you'd pop up.

[NewB]

Thank you @Wah

 

Allegedly, there's a Masamune in Chicago taken out of Japan by an APO. It took me years to convince this individual to sell me few blades for my personal collection so i doubt they'd be willing to show me such an important item.. either way I wouldn't be able to tell as I'm in very very early beginning of the nihonto knowledge however the oshigata is truly the only guiding light should my wish comes true and i get to see it.

 

 i know my friend wouldn't lie considering all the articles in their vault but in all fairness - hearsay. Thats why i asked how many are missing and what happens if the blade is found. 

 

Great suggestion on the Norishige! I'd love to own one once I restructure my collection. 

 

Thanks again

 

J.

 

 

[Wah]

Hello Simon,

I'm glad you missed me. Hehe!

 

J. , Hello!

 

If you value other up close detailed drawings of Honjo, please hit me up. 

 

Very few people ever saw the missing Masamune. If someone wishes to know its identity, they will need to search out the clues. 

Find the people in Japan still living that were friends of Honma Junji. Those people may have heard details. I spoke to a few, one was Dean Hartley.

For examle, It was said by Mr. Hartley/ according to Honma Junji's records, that its a Tanto of Wakizahi length, made in shinogi Tsukuri construction. He whispered "that was a secret". In other words, you won't see this in a book.

Last year, a fellow in Japan, who I don't know, said on Twitter something about wanting to see the HM.

A person writes this guy back, He said something like his teacher knew Honma Junji and he said Honjo M was a short sword and probably only he, would be able to identify it. Said something like they thought it was in U.S.

 

For the sake of this forum, the conversation is attached. The conversation is still on Twitter surprisingly.

 

There may be another missing one, but the list only indicates one Masamune. Of course, no one person really knows what came out.

Stephen T.

 

[Guest Simon R]

5 hours ago, Wah said:

Hello Simon,

I'm glad you missed me. Hehe!

 

Hello Stephen,

 

I suppose that the abiding problem here is that you are actually virtually impossible to miss.

Within seconds of someone typing the two words 'Honjo Masumune', you are invariably hovering around that thread faster than a fly drawn to a newly laid cowpat.

 

Because of an historical appreciation society which I have recently joined in Tokyo, I had the inestimable honour of meeting the current head of the Maysudaira family last Tuesday.

He is an incredibly noble, elderly gentleman and I felt that a ludicrous topic such as this would be beneath him. However, I later found out that, at the next meeting, Mr. Tokugawa himself is very likely to attend. Therefore, I will certainly take that opportunity to ask him about his very distant cousin, Stephen Tokugawa, in America and your astounding revelations about the highly secretive "research team chosen by Tokugawa's".

 

Once he has undoubtedly spat out his wine in amusement, I will report his subsequent comments, if any, on the NMB.

 

Chocks away!

 

Simon

 

[Wah]

Hello Simon,

Please calm down.

 It's great to know you are looking out for me. I don't know this Stephen Tokugawa you speak of. If this is your way of asking my last name, ..that's not the way to do it. 

I already told you, they said it wasn't the sword. Tell you what. Since you want to put me on the spot, Message me privately and I'll send you an article written by his Tokyo dealer telling of the event in 2003. Be sure to give top man a copy so he can read it. I think he'll like seeing it. 

Mr. Tokugawa is a very warm kind gentleman. He was nothing but kind. I wanted to give him something to show my appreciation. Ask him about the glass negative of Iemasa Tokugawa and family. Tsunenari's mom at age 16 was in that picture along with Iemasa, his son, and others.  I gifted it to him and the museum. 

 

I also want the Masamune to return. How can something return to an owner without a full public description/ pictures released stating and showing what was lost?  That's what needs to happen. 

Simon, do be careful how you word things. Be respectful. He is cousins with the Emperor, not Stephen. These people are very intelligent.  They know your intent before you speak.

 

Stephen T.  (not Tokugawa)

 

 

 

 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

There is a Tanto of 24cm that is also known as Honjo Masamune, just saying. 
Are you sure they talked about the missing Tachi or the Juyo Tanto Stephen ? 
 

 

[Wah]

Hello Christian,

I know the tanto you speak of. 

 

The guy from twitter said the HM was in the USA, so I do not think it was the

Honjo Ke Masamune tanto.

 

A rough translation of what he said:

"My teacher heard from Honma Sensei, Very few people, including his teacher, actually saw it before it was taken to America. 

He said it was a short sword and probably only he would understand it.

They were informed that it exists it the USA."

 

Again this is a poor translation. Sorry.

 

All the best,

Stephen T.

 

 

 

 

[Aiki-doh-ki]

Not the lost hojo Masamune, the Hattori Hanzo, or a katana for that matter, but it has the same writing on the blade as the one "The MaskedBoi" posted on January 13, 2019.  Google Lens brought me to Zsolt's post from July 17, 2021, on page 6 of this forum.  It leads me to believe that someone is using this mark specifically.

I also found the sword in an antique shop and did not pay much money for it.  I only bought it because it's really odd.  It has a short blade and a longer handle than you typically see.  I don't have measurements handy, but I can post them with more pictures if interested.  The tsuka and saya are made of metal, possibly brass.

I've been asking around and nobody I know seems to know what kind of sword this is.  Someone did say that he thought it was part of a Chinese two-sword set.  I did find a Goole image of what appeared to be the opposite hand sword of this one but when I clicked on it the site was no longer available.

I apologize for reviving this old thread, but I thought it was relevant to the AI discussion portion.

 

Regards,

Nick

[French nihonto]

Chinese copy

Max

[Stephen]

Digging up Honjo really needs a week time out....I joke.

But not far off 😉

Edited October 27, 2023 by Stephen

[Larason2]

I think it's intended to be a sort of nagamaki...