Honjo Masamune found!! (well almost... maybe)

[SteveM]

You are mistaken about the Japanese characters. The ones on your sword are

 

正 Sei (or Shō or Masa)

方 Hō (or Kata)

太 Tai

平 Hei

一 Ichi (or I or Kazu or a few other things)

夫 Fu/Pu (or O)

 

Seihō Taihei Ippu

or possibly Masakata Taihei Ippu

or possibly Seihō/Masakata Taihei Kazuo

 

The most common reading for the final two kanji is probably Kazuo, a very common male name. The literal meaning of these two kanji are "one" and "husband". These two kanji are also used in the Japanese translation for the word "polygamy", 一夫多妻 (ippu tasai) literally = one husband, many wives. These last two kanji are not particular to swordsmiths, and are not in any way used by swordsmiths (unless the name of the smith was Kazuo)

 

There is no "water" or "cut" on this sword. And they are oriented the wrong way on this sword. 

[Guido]

Um so it depending on the kanji and there meaning in the 1300’s it would literally translate as “water no cut sword big tender Masamune”

 

There are no kanji for "water", "no", "cut", "sword", "tender", and "mune" in 正方太平一夫; it means - not literally, though - "made in China".

 

P.S.: Oops, I missed Steve's reply, he was a little faster than me.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Guido Schiller

[John A Stuart]

Haaaaa! "For peace square people have only one husband." John

[TETSUGENDO]

A journey of countless missteps begins with one.

 

-S-

[Guido]

..., and then would lay there in bed with it Unsheath at home for hours as listening to the rest of “A song of Ice & Fire” audio books, and playing Skyrim, as it sat there laying on my satin sheets never once snagging or damaging them in any way, drinking in the sunlight through the windows on the weekends and the warmth from the fire in the woodstove that i used to heat the place i was living at the time. I dont know how to describe it but its almost like the blade has a life and sole of its own and we bonded and befriended each other over those first months, honestly whenever its with me its like im never alone but sitting there with an old friend, its almost like a constant tender loving hug, amd if it is infact the Yawarakai-Te i can attest to how aptly named the blade is, Yawarakai-Te in english means “Tender Hands”

 

Please consider that the sword is probably underage. Other than that, I totally get it ...

[raynor]

I am no expert but from the detective work of others it seem almost certain this sword was destroyed or dumped in Toyko bay.. alternatively the officers at the police station realized what Tokugawa had dropped off and whisked the sword away to safety.

 

Also at $60 in an antique shop the owner for sure knew what they had.. no serious dealer in antiques would let a katana go for that unless they did their homework. At least you were not ripped off.

 

Still, nothing wrong with dreaming 

[Greg F]

Trent there is no doubt your sword is not a Japanese made sword. Nihonto are not demascus. If you are adamant that it is Japanese you are more than welcome to show more pics and we can explain the differences.

 

Greg

[Vermithrax16]

Don't stop him , he's on a roll......

[PNSSHOGUN]

I'm open to being convinced it's a lost Masamune.

[Vermithrax16]

I'm open to being convinced it's a lost Masamune.

[TETSUGENDO]

What's the point, what was fun is deteriorating into cruelty.

 

 

          -S-

[Brian]

Ok, I take it back...don't have to take it easy anymore.
Seriously...trying to educate us on  sword, and who Masamune is and who his lineage is, and why this is genuine?
There is just too much nonsense in the reply you made to even start to debate it. Just pretend everything you know about this is wrong, and stop fantasizing please.

[16k]

HI Trent, and welcome.

 

Contrary to others, I don't think what you found is Chinese... But I don't think it's Japanese either.

 

You see, I'm not a rich guy, so I don't own many real antiques, and trust me, those I have look nothing like what you're showing.

 

And unless it's an old, turn of the nineteenth century replica, it's not Chinese either. I like to do some backyard cutting, so I own quite a few Chinese repliqua and trust me, even the worst one looks miles better than your sword. Chinese swordsmiths have very much improved lately and I even own one sword with an ayasugi hada and two other juka choji hamon that even show utsuri. I know it's hard to believe but if they had a better finished nakago and a traditional polish, they might fool some at first glance.

 

But back to your sword. If your sword actually is the lost Masamune, then surely, Masamune is highly overrated. IMHO, what you have here is probably worse than a Chinese repliqua: an Indian, flea market repliqua and the price you paid is correct for what it is.

 

But of course, you're the expert, not me, as I'm just a humble beginner. Besides, more pics and measurements would be welcome, as well as pics of the nakago.

 

Not trying to be haughty or sarcastic here, but you probably haven't seen many real Japanese swords at your young edge and errare humanum est!

[TETSUGENDO]

More pics, measurements, why?  Should we now delve deeper into this scatological pursuit.....to what end?

 

-S-

[Stephen]

As when i over leacture my son says....PLEASE STOP!!

[Ray Singer]

Suggest looking at the photo in Guido's post #122 above. Should be end of story.

[dwmc]

I personally prefer the photo in Guido's post #125 myself. If I had ever had a chance with a woman like that, it surely would have been the end of my story....

[Guest Rayhan]

I say Trent you have a real Masamune there! Can we see more pictures? 

[b.hennick]

Please stop pulling my leg it hurts! Why do we encourage this type of garbage? No answer is better than keeping this alive. This is my first and last post in this thread.

[dwmc]

Just a bit of levity, nothing wrong with a post getting a little off track occasionally. Back to reality!

 

My father was with the 11th Airborne Honor Guard for General MacArthur during his stay at the Grand Hotel in Yokohama, 1945.

 

After his guard duty ended in Yokohama, he was involved with weapons collection duty from Honshu to Northern Hokkaido.

 

What does this have to do with the Honjo Masamune, nothing really, it simply makes me think about what may have actually happened at the Mejiro police station after Tokugawa Iemasa dropped off his family swords including the Honjo. I'm sure it's been suggested many times before, but can we honestly believe that no matter how disciplined the Mejiro police officers were would not recognize the Honjo Masamune as well as the other Iemasa swords for what they were!!! Furthermore, would they really hand over the Iemasa's swords to a young American Army Sergeant. The police may have surrendered some of the lesser sword in possession of the station, but there is in no way those swords ever went beyond the Mejiro police station. 

 

In my mind there needs to be no further investigation as to the where abouts of the infamous Honjo Masamune beyond the officers at the Mejiro police station.

 

Only my opinion of course, will I continue to look closely at bring home's I find, well yeah...

[Stephen]

Stop please

[TETSUGENDO]

This ceased being amusing, or of any real interest quite a while back.....time to put it to rest.  

 

-S-

[vajo]

Every nation needs its mysts. The honjo masamune has been reached that status like excalibur or the ark of the covenant. Its been better the sword will never found. So the next generation can dream.

[Ted Tenold]

If one looks long enough, one sees what one really wants to see....

[Brian]

Nothing to stop. Those that are in pain reading amusing anecdotes or wishful thinking can just avoid this thread.
To me, this is just an amusing break from the seriousness of collecting, and I don't take any of this seriously. Surely people can detach themselves from the subject long enough to have a chuckle?
Until the Honjo is found, if ever, nothing wrong with speculation and amusement about something that has become a fable.

[raynor]

So I saw this dusty sword in the back of a rural Appalachian Walmart for $15 and..

 

Joke aside, and to bring this somewhat closer to reality again has anyone for fun thought of assembling a koshirae mentally or even physical resembling the surviving descriptions of the Honjo? It reads like quite the subtle elegant mount. I've come across two translations so far, one a bit slim:

 

 

The Koshirae is a Momoyama period Uchigatana-koshirae, the Tsuka has black Samé, indigo-blue Tsukamaki, 

the Menuki are pairs of three Kiri, the Tsuba and Fuchi have a Kiri and Kiku motif, the Kozuka and Kogai Kiri in gold.

 

And another more substantial:

 

 

The koshirae looks like from the Keicho period, the kashira is made of horn with the indigo-blue deer leather tsukamaki crossed over it makikake-style, 

large hishi. The tsuba has a diameter of 2 sun (6 cm / 2.4 inches), the menuki are kiri-mon in a circle, the saya is black lacquer without a kojiri, 

the sageo is purple, there is a kogai. The koshirae is of classical elegance and 2 shaku 8 sun 5 bu (86.4 cm / 34 inches). 

 

The tsuba, fuchi and kashira seems to my beginner mind a guessing game, maybe mon motifs on them all. I quite like the vision of black lacquered same with indigo leather tsukamaki together with the black saya and purple sageo. As for the menuki it sounds a lot like something like this when reading both descriptions, possibly blackened with gold highlights on the leafs and outer circle only as seen on some old tachi mounts rather then full gold plating.

 

Looks like the fortunately not lost Dojigiri Yasutsuna has koshirae parts that looks limilar to the Honjo description, specifically the tsuba, menuki(?) and fuchi could fit the lines describing the Honjo's koshirae, I take it they were both in the possession of Shoguns which would explain sort of a recurring theme.

I am however way out of my depth here and just guessing, but hey, its fun.

[Ray Singer]

Discussed in Guido's article (which may be the one you are referencing).

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/18-the-honj%C3%B4-masamune/

 

 

 

Joke aside, and to bring this somewhat closer to reality again has anyone for fun thought of assembling a koshirae mentally or even physical resembling the surviving descriptions of the Honjo? It reads like quite the subtle elegant mount.

[SAS]

While reading this thread it reminded me of a story my aikido sensei told me, about meeting a female descendant of the Tokugawa family and being invited to her home. The walls along the entry hallway were lined with a large collection of swords which came down through the family. I don't know if the Honjo Masamune was one of them, but.....

[Blazeaglory]

I read from 1st post to last and BOY did this thread take a turn lol

[Imure]

Dear All,

May I summarize the details and ask some intersting (for me interesting) questions?

The sword was took by Mr. Tokugawa to Police station at Dec. 1945

18.01.1946 Let's called "Bimore" took them away.

19.01.1946 It was reported to Commander of Metropolitan Police

28.01.1946 Policeman was sent to 7th Cavallry (got an answer the swords has to be examined after all swords were collected and transfered there.)

09.02.1946 Experts asked to make inquire on the swords

14.02.1946 All the swords collected by Police stations transferred through the Metro Police Board to the 7th Cavallry.

 

What means through Metro Police Board is? It is the headquarters of Metro Police? Or, mean the body of the MP.  I understand well, that all sword which collected at police stations were transferred to this Board, and together finally transferred to 7th Cavallry HQ?

In that case the 3 swords had to land firstly at this Board, and stayed there from 18.01.1946 to 14.02.1946?

 

If somebody took over the swords at HQ, I am sure made a registry what and how much took over. An inventory. Would be helpfull to find the receiving inventory of the 7th Cavallry HQ. (As I know HQ was at at the Japanese Imperial Merchant Marine Academy. No any document left there in the basement?)

 

When the experts made the sword classification I am sure they made also a list about the NT&IAO swords. Could have any list?

 

Other remark:

The US investigation everywhere dated this story at Dec.1946/Jan.1947:

 

One year later than it was. Based on this, I am not surprised that they did not found anything.

 

Thank You if you clear me these.