Honjo Masamune found!! (well almost... maybe)

[kusunokimasahige]

Coldy would not have been translated with the katakana ri but with ru most likely.

 

Koruji then would apply.

 

But still the name Coldy is non existing in general American names lists. The only reference to Coldy being a name (online) I have come across sofar is Coldy Bimore. Which makes one think that it is a non-existing name.

 

KM

[Guido]

... the Japanese lack of an "l" ...

There is no "l" in the Hepburn transcription system, but what is written as "r" in rōmaji is actually a sound that's in between an "l" and "r" - producing this sound is called an "alveolar tap". It's sort of like an "r" and an "l" at the same time.

[Lee Bray]

Cody/Cory/Corey/Colonel(?) Barrymore/Baltimore?

 

I've heard enough dodgy translations of my own name here in China to realise you may as well open the phone book and pick a name.

Be it through their understanding or lack thereof or my own inability to speak in an accent they can comprehend.

[Eric H]

The most reasonable is to interprete what is written. The Japanese Report states in katakana „korihdeibaimo“ followed by Gunso. The english Report states „Copl. (Gunso) Koridie? Beimo - who was in charge of this matter.

 

Copl. - Corporal ?

Koridie? Beimo - evidence of personal and family name. But with the personal name, the writer was not sure, hence the ?

 

IMHO „Coldy Bimore“ is until now the best phonetic Interpretation...as long as someone else presents a better one.

 

Eric

[Alex A]

Coldy B Moore

[Guido]

Why has it to be a real name, or a name at all? The police certainly would not have asked an American soldier in uniform for a picture ID or three utility bills addressed to him. If that sgt. was in a bad mood when asked for his name, we probably would now be analyzing the mystery name sakkumaidikku or kissumaiassu ...

[Guido]

Boldly going where no one has gone before ... I just googled コリーデイバイモ, and look what I found: コリー・ディカーソン (http://baseball.yahoo.co.jp/mlb/teams/player/3002420), a baseball player by the name of Corey Dickerson. I guess we now have a first name for good.

[Brian]

I think Corey is indeed the best of all the theories and the most likely.

Maybe Corey Barrymore as Lee suggested. Say it fast....

 

Brian

[Eric H]

Well...

[Guido]

Well what, in your expert opinion?

[Brian]

Cory/Corey (a legit and common English name) vs Coley....something no-one has as a first name anywhere in the West..

Hmmmmmm. :|

 

Brian

[Eric H]

Guido, I see no compelling arguments to change my opinion.

Erich

[drbvac]

What a great thread with input from true experts and linguists that I have no hope to discuss this with - but - Brians theory that it is COREY surely makes sense if the person is actually from the US and is in fact a 'Person"

 

Quite a mystery gentlemen -- please keep up the search and study.

[kusunokimasahige]

Erich. The debate was between Corey and COLDY.

 

Not Coley.

 

KM

 

 

PS........ !!! Anyone thought of the Bimore part of the name ?

 

Could the soldier not in fact have asked the police officers : "Where can I Buy More ?"

 

Could I Buy More ? Coldy Bimore ?

 

I know... quite far fetched but still.

[Guido]

Guido, I see no compelling arguments to change my opinion.

Yes, everybody is entitled to an opinon, but not all opinions are equally valid. Google Translate isn't the answer to everything.

[Toryu2020]

We need to examinethe record sof this police station from that time, and perhaps other official records from any local office that dealt with the Army. Why? because the Japanese might not have asked this soldier for photo ID and fingerprints but how did they know to recognize him as "a man in charge of the regiment" (Butai no sekininsha) After more than ten years under a military government I highly doubt that the police officers would release anything of value to just any soldier. The fact he is identified as sekininsha means they knew something more of this guy than his rank which would have been apparent from his uniform. So i would want to examine the daily logs of the police station leading up to this date, had he been in to the station previously?

 

Leaving aside the English note for a minute, why would they use his full name? Why not Colydaybimore as a single word family name? EG; Takahashi Shacho, Yamanaka Taisa, or Yamashita Shogun? Given the confusion over first and last names that exists to this day when communicating between Japanese and Americans how can we know which is first name and which is last when the scribe did not include any commas while being very precise otherwise? i would want to see more forms, documents and writing examples from the original scribe to see what can be gleaned from his writing habits.

 

Could his name be Corday? could it be Gordy? Instead of Bimore, could this have been a V? Vimo, De veimo? Could Henk be on to something? Imagine as he comes to the house looking for swords Tokugawa asks "what was your name? the uncomprehending American repeats over and over as he paws the mans stuff "this is neat, could I buy more!"

 

I doubt the Japanese have these swords but they do have the answers buried in their records...

[Eric H]

Once more misunderstood. Corey or Coley is shown as example that both are written the same way in katakana, thats all, but perhaps spoken differently....R or L. The name in katakana is a „phonetic“ testimony. Until now it is believed that the first name is the person‘s name, but what when it is the family name followed by the personal name as pointed out by T.C. Helm. The english Report from Mr. Arita states 2 names, this should not be overlooked, and I would give preference to the theory family name first followed by personal name.

Westerners are apparently not in the position to solve this brain teaser, Japanese people have better prerequisites.

 

Eric

[Guido]

Once more misunderstood.

Well, Eric, it's easy to see why you're misunderstood, you're constantly changing your angle.

Westerners are apparently not in the position to solve this brain teaser' date=' ...[/quote']It's all about language abilities, not race. But yes, if someone doesn't have any knowlege of Japanese, then it's exceedingly difficult.

 

I don't expect that we'll come to a conclusion, and will now sign out of the name discussion, but just for the fun of it, here are a few results from Google Japan when typing in "コリー":

 

コリー・ディカーソン = Corey Dickerson

コリー・フェルドマン = Corey Feldman

コリー・ハイム = Corey Haim

コリー・ハート = Corey Hart

コリー・モンティス = Cory Monteith

[Eric H]

...Copl. (Gunso) Koridie ? alias Coldy Bimore

 

Any comments to the pic?

 

Eric

[Adrian S]

Hi guys,

 

Thank you for your help and thoughts. I have a lot of new material to digest and I'm going to do some more digging on the ground in Japan, you never know what might turn up!

 

I'm not sure about Japanese police operational procedures but you would think that Arita may have kept notebooks? It would be interesting to see what records may exist in Japanese archival storage if it is accessible.

 

In the meantime it may be worth some of our contributors looking into Sgt Corey B Moore or other alternative name combinations in the US Army records. It would be awesome if the NMB members contributions led to the discovery of Honjo!

 

P.S. for the record I don't have Honjo and if I was convinced I did it would be returned immediately to the Tokugawa Art Museum collection, no charge. It would be a privilege to own such a historic piece even only for a short time.

 

cheers,

[Eric H]

According to the new article on the Honjo Masamune it is stated that Albert Yamanaka has transcribed the Gunso‘s name as Coldy Bimore. Strange that this information did not pop up in this thread. Yamanaka‘s competency is beyond question.

 

Eric

[Kronos]

It seems reasonable to me that if they were handed out to US servicemen then at least one of the 14 the Honjo Masamune was with would of turned up by now. So we can probably rule that out which leaves either they are all together in a collection in either the U.S or Japan or have been destroyed. If it's the former I can see them turning up sooner or later when it gets handed down to a generation that would want to sell for whatever reason or realize what they had and return them.

[Brian]

Actually, if he translated that as Coldy Bimore, then I very much question that job.

It has already been shown that it is "ay" and not "I" but in any case, the one thing we can be sure of is that the guy's name was not Coldy Bimore. There is no American called Coldy Bimore. Can debate it as much as you like....it isn't going to change that fact.

Obviously the person writing it down wasn't familiar with American names, and the fault lies there. But can we at least stop going on about the one thing that we know is incorrect?

 

Brian

[Markus]

First of all, thank you Guido for your great article from the other thread that perfectly summarizes the facts.

 

My two cents on the name topic, mostly from the point of view of translator, I think it is indeed a "di" and not

a "dei". And when I see the lenghtening of the syllable "ri" in the supposed first name, I am of the opinion we

are facing the first name "Corey." And for the surname, even if there are no dots separating the first from the

surname, the "di" stands out for me and I am with Tom and assume a kind of name with Italian roots, e.g.

Corey Di Vimo/D´Bimo or something like that...

 

Anyway and as pointed out, we have no clue how "motivated" the officer was that day to find a proper katakana

transcription for the name he heard but I would strongly suggest to forget about the name "Coldy Bimore"...

[Adrian S]

Hi Guido,

 

Great and concise summary in your revised article! I think you will find it was Meguro Police Station not Meijiro, according to Arita's report. You need to edit it,

 

cheers,

[Eric H]

I think you will find it was Meguro Police Station not Meijiro,

Mejiro Police Station - corresponds also to the english Report by Mr. Arita

Eric

[Guido]

I think you will find it was Meguro Police Station not Meijiro, according to Arita's report. You need to edit it

All documents, including Mr. Arita's original response in Japanese, say Meijiro. There's only one, a translation from Japanese into English, that says Meguro - I guess a mistake by the translator.

[kusunokimasahige]

http://www.keishicho.metro.tokyo.jp/5/mejiro/index.htm

 

 

.

[Eric H]

Hi

[kusunokimasahige]

Eric, I am seriously wondering what your angle is, constantly posting hiragana/katakana meanings.

 

It is quite simple.

 

There were swords. They were stolen. The police office was Meijiro (see link posted above).

The man who took them is unknown and his name (Coldy Bimore as some want us to believe) is a strange name since it is not nor will it ever be, a normal AMERICAN/ENGLISH name.

 

Therefore people on here are thinking it might be a different name.

 

There are a few ways to delve into archives.

 

Main questions :

 

Who was the American soldier (if he was at all a soldier) taking the swords with him.

Who were the Police officers who took the swords in and who were the police officers who handed them over.

 

Are there archives in Japan (police, Military) which can shed more light on this.

Are there archives in America (Military) which can shed light on this.

 

That is about it. I do not understand why you constantly come up with "proof" for irrelevant things for the discussion.

 

KM