Honjo Masamune found!! (well almost... maybe)

[waljamada]

I really hope this discussion keeps going and I get to be a fly on the wall to a great discovery.

[vitamin]

This morning in the shower, I realized something.

 

There's a fact, which we have all been forgetting. This fact is something we all know to be a fact. Yet somehow in all of this, we did not think of it. 

 

Have you ever spoken to a soldier who is in uniform whilst he was on-duty performing some task, while you yourself were a civilian or a higher-ranking officer? 

 

If so, then, you will undoubtedly know that, without fail, every statement out of his mouth will be finished with the word, "sir," or "ma'am."

 

What's your name?

 

"Coley Davis, ma'am."

 

コリー  = Coley

ディバイ, = Davi(s)

モ. = Mo(m)

 

Coley could also be short for Malcolm, so I'm tossing you a Malcolm also. 

 

These guys were both Cavalry, not sure if 7th though. 

 

Good luck.

[16k]

well, dunno if this will lead anywhere, but that is certainly quite interesting.

[16k]

And since we’re here with theories, one crossed my mind after your post (and, no, I wasn’t under the shower ). 

we always asume Coldy Bimore to be first name + name, but was if it had been recorded the Japanese way? Name + first name?

 

Coldy would then become the name and bimore the first name. What "real" name that could correspond to, I’ll leave you guys elaborate, but I wonder if people have searched that way (given treasure hunters, I guess they probably have).

[vitamin]

Check out the Katana in this video: 

 

This koshirae reminds me of some of the descriptions given previously in this thread of the Honjo Masamune. Not that I think this is the Honjo, but maybe it gives an idea of what level of sword we are looking for. 

 

Of course if I was the owner of such a sword, there's no way I'd turn it in to the police in such a Koshirae. I would put it in the plain wooden holder with my name on it. I doubt if the Honjo is out there, it also has the same Koshirae as the descriptions. 

 

Anyway, does anyone know what sword this is, that they are showing here? 

[Jacques]

Jonathan, 

 

Look at this one, it's not a modern replica.

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/itomaki-tachi-koshirae-58th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

 

 

[Brian]

The koshirae of the Honjo is known. It is nothing like this.

[Wah]

There was an exhibition a while ago. The actual Koshirae of HM was displayed. 

https://tsumugu.yomiuri.co.jp/special/桃山展「本庄正宗」の刀装初公開/

 

Stephen T.

[vitamin]

21 hours ago, Wah said:

There was an exhibition a while ago. The actual Koshirae of HM was displayed. 

https://tsumugu.yomiuri.co.jp/special/桃山展「本庄正宗」の刀装初公開/

 

Stephen T.

 

Thanks Wah.

 

Does this mean that when they turned it in to the police, it was not in the koshirae pictured here and described by in text by earlier posts? 

 

Thanks for the info. Just curious about this interesting mystery.

[Markdd]

On 10/25/2014 at 4:09 PM, Randy McCall said:

 

Hi,

Just read through all this fascinating thread didn't know about the existence of these swords, couple of questions on the line drawings of swords why do they only have a passing resemblance to the actual blade? they look completely different in photos I assume that there are no photos of this sword in existence.

As the sword was unsigned is it possible that it was taken apart by the unknown soldier or another, had a gimme Mei put on to in theory increase its value and reassembled with another not so flamboyant set of fittings from another sword [mix and match] so as to make 2 swords one with a better blade the other with better fittings to increase the sale value of them or he my have not liked the fittings and swapped them accordingly, sorry if I sound a bit stupid on this subject.

 

On the soldier is it possible that he was not American but was only attached to them sure plenty of soldiers were around at this time ,could have been a British soldier  Sgt Cody William Moore ,William is always shortened to bill.

Mark

[Zsolt]

On 13 January 2019, "TheMaskedBoi" posted a picture and asked the possible translation of the inscription on the sword he had purchased at the time, which was 正方太平一夫. As "TheMaskedBoi" did not post more pictures after several requests, "Guido" provided a witty translation on 14 January, based on what he had seen, that the text meant "made in China".

Recently I have come across a sword which has exactly the same appearance as presented by "TheMaskedBoi". I myself do not think it is a blade of great value, but for a more accurate assessment, and to bring the subject to a more reassuring conclusion, I am attaching more pictures of the sword. The nagasa size of the blade is 70 cm.

 

I would also be interested in a correct translation of the inscription. As a point of interest, I note that the online translators Google Translate and Amazon Translate that I tried give different results from "SteveM's" translation, and the translator DeepL refused to accept it as Japanese text, but interpreted it as Chinese (also with a different result).

[Brian]

It's a horrible horrible ugly nasty complete mess of a Chinese fake that really doesn't warrant any time spent on it.
BAD!

[ROKUJURO]

Zsolt,

just a few things so you can avoid a purchase of this kind:

- no Damascus steel in genuine Japanese blades
- rarely inscriptions on the blade itself, and if, they are not upside-down as in this one
- no cast mountings, and they are not loose and rattling
- usually there are SEPPA (= shims) betrween the TSUBA and the HABAKI as well as between TSUBA and TSUKA (= handle) 
- the KISSAKI (tip) usually has a YOKOTE (read terms in the web)

[SAS]

Hey, at least the scratches are all parallel!

[Zsolt]

Thank you for your comments so far.

In fact, I would like to use this nihonto imitation to investigate how AI deep learning techniques could be used to help distinguish between pieces of traditional Japanese sword making from other imitations.

Perhaps this topic should be started in a new topic.

[ROKUJURO]

Zsolt,

there are some traditional learning techniques to distinguish good from bad: Reading good books, reading here in the NMB forum, and looking at genuine blades for comparison. It only takes a lifetime to become an expert.....

[brianISaDOUCHE]

i am interested in talking with you guys and sharing nihonto 

i must 

state my name is anonymous and location etc  for my protection 

 

for my first nihonto i looked and looked 

 

i found a old sword  i could afford and got it based on its blade and price and authenticity 

 

a cut down tachi  is what i wanted, and that’s what it is 

from the presence of very old mekugi holes it was shortened 

with masamune characters on the tang 

it’s definitely old  not vandalism 

 

came in a shirasaya with no koshirae

it is not machined steel 

the shirasaya is wood hand made not machined fits perfectly 

 

its carbon steel with a hamon like a rough ocean waves close together and sharp 

 

no bo hi at all and the spine has bevels 

 

needs polishing but not the most terrible condition 

 

i have a friend with a real masamune dagger with hozon paper  and the signature on his blade is a perfect match on mine

so the question is if it’s real which masamune is it if it’s not the honjo 

 

the blade is 25.5-26 inches long 

 

 

[Misconstrued]

That's a bold statement. Firstly we would need photos of the blade itself and photos of the tang for identification purposes, but more so identifying the age as Masamune often didn't put his Mei on swords. There are many old swords that have no ties to Masamune himself. Old blades are very frequent in the Nihonto community. Photos are needed for any sort of identification. Even if it's not the Masamune doesn't mean it's worthless either. The Honjo Masamune could very much still be in Japan. The only real identifying factor for the Honjo Masamune is it's hamon, as shortly before it was given up by the family, a hamon record was created.

[Brian]

You're going to need to upload pics.
Also, bear in mind that there are PLENTY of Masamune smiths unrelated to THE Masamune. I suspect your friend has one of these. No ways a Soshu Masamune is out there in unknown private hands with Hozon. Most of the real Masamune are well known.
Yours could be any of the many Masamune, or it could easily be one of the thousands of gimei that exist. Comparing mei by people who are no experts is usually not very effective. it's like a regular person doing handwriting analysis. Most of us here can't tell if something is gimei or not. It requires a knowledge of stroke pressure and styles and order and many other things.
Best advice, post pics and let's see what it looks like.

[brianISaDOUCHE]

it’s a bold statement to say masamune never signed his blades as there are many with signatures 

 

there’s several in museums to compare the signature as well 

 

and for the 3rd time i didn’t say i have the honjo 

but another masamune 

 

[brianISaDOUCHE]

as far as a real soshu tanto blade with masamunes signature and hozon paper yes it’s real and i have pictures of all of it 

be it’s not one of the newer masamunes. i can read the kanji 

 

so don’t assume it doesn’t exist 

 

im just saying he has a real masamune in Japan and it’s always been there and that is what i compared my nihonto to 

 

i never said i have a honjo 

 

but most likely e a real kamakura era masamune 

 

i will upload pics later of higher quality 

[Brian]

The length of your sword, if you consider it ubu, would likely preclude it from being by THE Masamune. Think tachi.

[brianISaDOUCHE]

brian please don’t be thick headed and abusive 

you haven’t seen my sword yet 

it is a cut down tachi turned into a katana 

 

i didn’t say it’s THE honJO masamune 

 

but one of 50 masamune swords probably left floating around in the world 

[Misconstrued]

Keyword is he 'Often' didn't sign his swords. I never said he didn't.

[brianISaDOUCHE]

look people i wouldn’t even bother you guys if i didn’t have something special 

 

and i have spent hours looking at fakes 

 

it would be productive to make a list of the masamune swords out there to compare it to to see if it’s one of the others 

i m working on that 

 

this is my first time on these boards i read the heihokadensho when i was a kid and used swords studied martial arts 

imhappy to be here 

i appreciate and study Japanese history and it’s a part of my family 

 

i want you to understand i bought the blade under the presumption that it may be fake but it is way old and definitely real Japanese nihonto

 

it has nie like a real soshu blade

[Brian]

Nigel,
If it is cut down, then it would likely have lost its signature. Yet you say it has one.
No..NO-ONE here thinks you have the Honjo Masamune. Much the same as no-one thinks you have a sword by The Masamune.. And no, afraid there aren't 50 lost Masamune floating around the world. But there ARE thousands of gimei ones.
You're getting pretty worked up over something that is easily solved by posting pics. We are all looking forward to seeing them, and we would all LOVE for it to turn out to be a lost treasure.
 

[John A Stuart]

I hope it is something really special, your enthusiasm, I hope, warranted. Pictures although limited in refined appraisal would sure eliminate obvious questions which, I confess, I have plenty. John 

[kissakai]

Should have started with pictures. Deeds rather words works for me.

Maybe just fishing for bites

 

[Okan]

Yes Brian please don’t be thick headed and abusive   Give the kid troll a chance to prove himself..

 

@parry more You don't share your name and location for your protection?? Protection from who if I may ask  You think Japanese secret agents and FBI would breach your door?  Or one of us perhaps  Like Grev said, always start with some pictures! 

 

 

 

 

[David Flynn]

A picture is worth a thousand words.