Honjo Masamune found!! (well almost... maybe)

[k morita]

@ Schiller san,

Thank you for the perfect English translation of the description of Koshirae.

 

@Eric san,

A wonderful historical document!!

 

The following picture is a line drawing of Honjo Masamune which I possess.

download/file.php?id=18122

[Alex A]

Interesting read, heres another theory. The swords where handed in at the police station, but where not the real deal , hence a low key handover...Someone put me right

[Brian]

To paraphrase the old saying of "just because I'm paranoid, it doesn't mean they are not out to get me" let me state the following:

"Just because it sounds like a conspiracy theory, doesn't mean there isn't a conspiracy"

Doesn't hurt to theorize. Would be great for it to be discovered in our lifetime.

 

Brian

[Alex A]

:lol: , I love a good conspiracy!.

[Guido]

"Just because it sounds like a conspiracy theory, doesn't mean there isn't a conspiracy"

Why does it sound like one? If "they" (whoever "they" are) were really after the sword, "they" did a pretty bad job. Why did nobody go to Mr. Tokugawa's residence and demanded the surrender, like it was done in many other cases? He handed it over voluntarily. And then "they" waited a month to pick it up at the police station. Wasn't very high on "their" priority list, huh?

 

My theory: Sgt. Bimore was an alien in human disguise! They do exist, I've been abducted a couple of times myself. The extraction of information from my brain was rather painful, but I do miss the anal probing ...

[Adrian S]

Hi guys,

 

Guido maybe being funny but he makes a good point. If the Americans were after it for the Psychological War value then they did a sloppy job of it and why wait 18+ days? I think it all boils down to Arita's report. Who ordered the first evaluation? Who authorised Iemasa to keep them at home after the first evaluation? Who ordered the second evaluation? Why did the second evaluation take 18+ days, although it is possibly understandable. I doubt any of these orders came from the Occupation Forces or the superiors of the Metropolitan Police. Answer is probably Arita, Arita and Arita.

 

BTW Guido, that alien brain extraction comment explains a lot :lol:

 

cheers,

[Guido]

BTW Guido, that alien brain extractionl comment explains a lot :lol:

It does, doesn't it? At least my pain threshold is much higher nowadays, so I guess I have to be thankful for that.

[Eric H]

Hi

[Adrian S]

Looks like Arita's story has some collaborating evidence. This is actually getting kind of interesting! This document posses some interesting questions, especially when examining the dates as they relate to the missing Honjo Masamune.

 

Can someone help me with theses acronyms?

 

I am surprised at the statement that reports have come in of National Treasure swords being handed out as souvenirs by the "civil police"!

 

cheers,

[Guido]

The following picture is a line drawing of Honjo Masamune which I possess.

Morita-san, were you able to find out who this drawing was made by? You posted it already some time ago, but IIRC, there is no name or seal on the scroll ...?

[Randy McCall]

]Credit for the scans posted by Eric and me should go to Stephen Thorpe; all of them - and quite a few more - can be found in the articles sub-forum.

 

Ah, thank you for the clarification and pointer, Guido-san. I'll make sure that's made clear!

[Eric H]

The documents were provided by Mr. Stephen Thorpe who copied them during a visit at the National Archives in College Park, MD. However these documents are very useful for anybody who is interested firstly on the Honjo Masamune and secondly on the historic value in general.

There seems to be doubts about the translation of the Japanese to the english text regarding the „ Copl. (Gunso) Koridie Beimo“.

In the hope I have found the right passage it would be interesting to know if there are other more precise translations.

 

Eric

[Guido]

The name of the sergeant who took away the swords was taken down (phonetically in katakana) as コリーディバイモ (ko-rih-di-ba-i-mo) or maybe コリーデイバイモ (ko-rih-de-i-ba-i-mo); although a rather long name, there is no ・, which is usually used between given and family names of non-Japanese, so it might well be just one name, i.e. family name.

[kusunokimasahige]

So basically in the personnell lists of the era one should look for a serviceman with the first name of Corey.

 

There cannot be many of those imho.

 

KM

[Guido]

The name of the sergeant who took away the swords was taken down (phonetically in katakana) as コリーディバイモ (ko-rih-di-ba-i-mo) or maybe コリーデイバイモ (ko-rih-de-i-ba-i-mo); ...

Looking at it again, it's definately デイ (dei) and not ディ (di) - in the latter case, the イ would have been closer to the デ, smaller, and more to the right. The name therfore reads "ko-rih-de-i-ba-i-mo (korihdeibaimo)".

[Brian]

Fantastic work Guido.

Now we need to figure out if there is a possibility it is 2 words, or one word.

Missing the ・, what are the chances it was 2 words? If there is a chance, then I agree with KM that we are looking for a Cory or Corey.

Can someone verify of Gunso is definitely corporal?

Corporal Cory xxx

 

Brian

[Eric H]

The name of the sergeant who took away the swords was taken down (phonetically in katakana) as コリーディバイモ (ko-rih-di-ba-i-mo) or maybe コリーデイバイモ (ko-rih-de-i-ba-i-mo); although a rather long name, there is no ・, which is usually used between given and family names of non-Japanese, so it might well be just one name, i.e. family name.

 

Guido, thank you very much for clarification. The name seems to be too long for a family name. The given „Coldy Bimore“ is near to the phonetical transcription, but Americans would spell „Bimore“ accentuating the „more“ not only „mo“. Perhaps I am wrong here. Anyway, on Wikipedia is another theory on this.

The two kanji after the katakana in Guido‘s explanation depicts „Gunso“ which is translated as Sergeant.

 

Coldy Bimore : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coldy_Bimore

 

Eric

[Guido]

Gunsō 軍曹 = Sergeant

[Guido]

When asked his name at the Mejiro police station (literally 'what are you called') he might have replied "I'm called D. B. Moore" ...

And I thought I've heard it all ...

[Guido]

The name seems to be too long for a family name.

Why? If he was of Jewish-German ancestry, the name isn't really that long; you need a lot of katakana to write "Aschaffenburger", "Kullenmeier", or "Pulvermacher" for instance.

[Adrian S]

First I've heard of this one too, but....according to the Wikipedia page D.B. Moore is associated with the sword pick ups. I wonder if anyone has chased this lead. Photos, talking to the surviving relatives etc. (looking in their closets hehehe)

 

After reading the documents it seems that the original evaluation by the Mejiro police, the approval of keeping the swords at the residence by the police, checks out. It also it seems the Provost Marshal of the 10th January issued a memorandum that "only the CG of major units" can issue certificates to retain artistic or historic swords. So as far as that is concerned Arita was following orders and so was the mysterious Sargent. Hhmmm

 

I think the D.B. Moore theory needs some investigation, Google says this guy http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... d=94863753

 

cheers,

[Guido]

What I find quite telling is that Tokugawa Iemasa's letters, and those of other owners of important swords, were answered elaborately and politely, but it seems that no thorough investigation was launched. Did anybody try to talk to the police officer who handed over the swords? The complaints about the missing swords were in all likelihood just a nuisance to the American occupation forces, and an embarrassment to the Japanese police; much more important matters had to be taken care of in those days after the war, with Japan in rubble, than "some old swords".

[Guido]

....according to the Wikipedia page D.B. Moore is associated with the sword pick ups.

Sorry, but it looks more like yet another of Russell's teapots going into orbit.

[Eric H]

The complaints about the missing swords were in all likelihood just a nuisance to the American occupation forces, and an embarrassment to the Japanese police; much more important matters had to be taken care of in those days after the war, with Japan in rubble, than "some old swords".

Nothing can be truer.

Guido, as you are speaking and reading Japanese, what is YOUR version of this phonetically ko-rih-de-i-ba-i-mo?...i.e. which name or names come in your mind?...or the other way, if someone introduces himself with: I‘m called Coldy Bimore, how would you write this in katakana...the same way or different?

 

Eric

[Guido]

Guido, as you are speaking and reading Japanese, what is YOUR version of this phonetically ko-rih-de-i-ba-i-mo?...i.e. which name or names come in your mind?

Quite frankly, I have no clue. Some vague ideas, maybe, but nothing that really is convincing.

...or the other way' date=' if someone introduces himself with: I‘m called Coldy Bimore, how would you write this in katakana...the same way or different?[/quote']When I was in the army, I certainly didn't introduce myself by saying "I'm called Cpl. Schiller". And nobody would ask me what I'm called. They would look at my stripes, and say "what's your name, Cpl.?" Men in uniform, whether armed forces or police, simply don't talk like that.

 

Other than that, "I'm called" would probably be written アイムコレド.

[k morita]

The following picture is a line drawing of Honjo Masamune which I possess.

Morita-san, were you able to find out who this drawing was made by? You posted it already some time ago, but IIRC, there is no name or seal on the scroll ...?

 

Schiller san,

This line drawing is a long roll book.

There is neither a signature nor a date on the long roll book.(Maybe late Edo period?)

 

 

Mr.Honma Junji wrote on his book the impression when he looked at Honjo Masamune at Tokugawa's residence in around 1937.

(He visited Tokugawa for the preliminary survey for designating swords as the national treasure.)

The title of the book is [Kunzan tōwa](薫山刀話,pub 1972),on page 87-93.

He wrote, the shape and "nikuoki" of Honjo Masamune is look like Meibutsu Ishida-Masamune(NT)石田正宗.

 

Attached pic below is Ishida Masamune.

[Guido]

Morita-san, it's a pity that we don't know more about the origin of the scroll. Anyhow, your additional information about what Kunzan had to say adds yet another piece to the puzzle. You've come up with some amazing details, including old style oshigata. I'm in the process of revising my old article on the Honjõ Masamune, and your contributions will be among the core of what we know so far.

[Brian]

I think we have to try and decide if the Japanese lack of an "l" meant that Coldy was written as "Coridy" or if maybe there was no "L" and they were writing "Cory"

Since Guido has now shown that is was "dei" and not "di" that was written, at the least we now have "Coriday Bimore" which makes less sense.

Therefore I assume that the name had more in common with Corey De-Baimo (Maybe pronounced like De Santos?)

 

I think we can safely lose the Coldy Bimore legend though.

Colday Bimore sounds even less likely.

 

Cory D' Baimo....

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

On the DB More thing.

 

Most Japanese would have translated the sentence "I am called" : "Ai amu ka(ru)(ro)du". So the idea that the Katakana says I am called D.B.More (or Moore) is very, very far fetched. Also the name Coldy Bimore is not a proper US name afaik.

 

There must be some trail left somewhere. Even if records were lost in fires as the Wiki site states.

 

Do we have the names of the Police officers working at that specific station during that specific time ?

 

KM

[Eric H]

This is a misunderstanding, I did not want to have translated „I am called“ but the name Coldy Bimore in katakana when spoken by an American and listened by a Japanese. There is a difference in pronunciation. Th „ri“. In the „ko-rih-de-i-ba-i-mo, the „ri“ is clearly to hear as a „R“ whereas in the name „Italy“, written as itaria, the „ri“ is clearly to hear as a „L“.

In short: Pronunciation sometimes is R and sometimes is L

Eric