Tsuba. Opinion sought please.

[MarkB]

Hello, all.

 

I have a tsuba on which I'm seeking the board members' opinions. Specifically, has it lost some large areas of shinchu zogan? Any other comments would be welcomed, of course.

 

It measures 73mm wide X 75mm high and is rather thin at just under 3mm thick.

 

I think I can see traces of black lacquer on the surface and it feels very smooth to the touch.

[Soshin]

Hi Mark B.,

 

Yes much of the brass inlay is missing. To me it looks old and likely a early brass inlay tsuba but not in good condition.

[MarkB]

Thanks for replying, David.

 

In the last picture, I think I see remnants of black lacquer. Now, would this be on a surface previously occupied by brass inlay? And if so, does this mean the inlay dropped out a very long time ago?

 

I'm intrigued by this tsuba, even in this condition, and would love to know more about it.

[laowho]

I like the dappling. It isn't something I've seen much of and is very evocative of fall. So much art in tsuba with such simple but profound technique. In fact, if this spotting is representative of leaf dessication, isn't it possible that they didn't have inlay? I'm probably way off track here.

[MarkB]

Thanks, Doug.

 

I don't see those cross-hatched engraved lines used to anchor inlay and I see traces of lacquer?

I do like this piece and for me it expresses that falling-apartness quality. Sabi, I think it is called.

[Toryu2020]

I for one think it looks the way it is supposed to look,

No evidence of loss that I can see, I would think the cut-outs would be deeper if there was brass inlaid in them. Not your everyday piece, nice find.

-t

[MarkB]

Thanks, Thomas.

 

It's a bit of a puzzle for me, as there still remains some fine lines of brass inlay.

I wonder if the cut-outs or shallow depressions were originally filled with some other material?

[Soshin]

Thanks for replying, David.

 

In the last picture, I think I see remnants of black lacquer. Now, would this be on a surface previously occupied by brass inlay? And if so, does this mean the inlay dropped out a very long time ago?

 

Hi Mark B.,

 

That's what I am thinking. It was likely lacquered after some rust damage and some of the brass inlays were lost. Can't be sure 100% without the tsuba in hand. The condistion is the big issue for me and while I wouldn't added it to my collection because of it is fine for someone beginning or someone who is not a serious collector of fine tosogu and instead spends their money on nicer nihonto.

[kaigunair]

Hi Mark,

Great tsuba. My gut feeling is that this is momoyama period, based on the really outrageous design, and that the kozuka ana, while an earlier form, was actually a later add-on and not part of the original design.

 

I think several elements of your tsuba lend itself to some serious study by any serious tosogu student. Definitely not a run of the mill as Tom has stated, so thanks for sharing it. I really like the way this smith has abstracted the design elements. I see an individual, albeit magnified, shippo theme, but the others I can't readily identify, which makes the piece even more interesting. It is also not your typical round shape but a somewhat tachi looking mokko gatta with aoi cutouts is also very interesting. This and the fact that it also has brass, and may have had more in the past, is also an indicator this wasn't your basic tsuba.

 

Another feeling I have is that your face-on photos are really washing out the tsuba and its texture. I see that your side profile photo is showing what looks to possibly be some nice iron. Of course it would help to have this tsuba in hand, but there are definitely some really interesting and pleasant elements that can be picked out of your photo that indicate this was possibly, at one time, a pretty nice tsuba and could have been worn by a higher ranked bushi.

 

If you could provide some measurements on your tsuba, and possibly try to take some photos without flash or harsh light. Some off angle pics of the surface might help. I also think outside pics on an overcast day or twilight, vs direct noon day sun is preferable. If possible, would love to see how it might look mounted.

[Soshin]

Hi Junichi,

 

I received and have been reading five copies of KTK catalogs. My standards are sky high right now. I agree the with your dating of the tsuba. The measurements are in the original post of the topic.

[kaigunair]

Hi Junichi,

I received and have been reading five copies of KTK catalogs. My standards are sky high right now. I agree the with your dating of the tsuba. The measurements are in the original post of the topic.

Hi David,

Thanks for pointing out the measurements. Guess I was to taken with the photos to notice...

 

I've had the KTK catalogs for a while. Nice stuff, but I don't understand the comparison. Items there span many genre and ages. In my own meager studies, I've been learning to try approach each piece, not against my own perceived notions of beauty or craftsmanship as seen in other eras or styles or a mix thereof, but within the context of the time, era, and cultural atmosphere with which it was made (and the better pieces being more imbued with). As an example, if I studied Natsuo all day long, I wouldn't see the beauty in a fine katsushi or owari tsuba....

 

Anyhow, it would seem Mark's example has some very interesting characteristics. Hoping to learn more about what the symbols may mean when taken together. They probably unlock the reason behind this tsuba, possibly who made it or what the creator had in mind as its "message". And especially so if this does indeed date to the momoyama era, with what that most interesting period stands for...

[MauroP]

Hi Mark,

I'm with Junichi, it is really an interesting tsuba, unfortunately lacking most of its original hira-zogan. I'm still struggling with old inlay school classifications, but I guess the best tag for this tsuba should be Kaga Yoshiro, and Momoyama period is a good assumption as well.

Please see: http://www.giuseppepiva.com/index.php/e ... tsuba.html

Bye, Mauro

[Soshin]

I've had the KTK catalogs for a while. Nice stuff, but I don't understand the comparison. Items there span many genre and ages. In my own meager studies, I've been learning to try approach each piece, not against my own perceived notions of beauty or craftsmanship as seen in other eras or styles or a mix thereof, but within the context of the time, era, and cultural atmosphere with which it was made (and the better pieces being more imbued with). As an example, if I studied Natsuo all day long, I wouldn't see the beauty in a fine katsushi or owari tsuba....

 

Anyhow, it would seem Mark's example has some very interesting characteristics.

 

Hi Junichi and Mauro,

 

Relax and just chill out guys. Taste in styles and aesthetics are subjective and contextual in nature but condition is a more objective characteristic of any piece that is where the current example is lacking. I not saying it isn't worth discussing on NMB but I was just trying to point out the positive and negative points as any piece has them.

[kaigunair]

 

The condistion is the big issue for me and while I wouldn't added it to my collection because of it is fine for someone beginning or someone who is not a serious collector of fine tosogu and instead spends their money on nicer nihonto.

 

Don't take my comments personally David. Take comfort in the fact that I would have made the same post, and gave the same amount of encouragement, to any new collector of tosogu about this particular tsuba who had received similar comments by anyone else one this board. Please don't think that my posts were directed to you. Instead, know that they were aimed at providing Mark with a quite different opinion about the piece he asked about. As I've tried to explain, I believe it would easily find a place in the collection a "serious student" of tosogu because of its various attributes.

 

Now if we're talking about amassing a collection of only expensive tsuba, (i.e. those in the tens of thousands of $$ and up), this may be excluded from that group....excluding the possibility we find out it happens to possibly come from a famous ex-former owner.

 

I'd like to hear more about the motif's on the tsuba. Anyone figure out the symbolism yet?

[Steve Waszak]

I think this tsuba was probably originally made to look like the tsuba below...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[MarkB]

You guys continue to amaze me.

 

Steve, the pic you posted does look very like mine, indeed.

So, the shinchu zogan on mine has most probably (probably definitely) fallen out years ago.

 

One further question. I note that in both Steve's example and in mine, the fine brass inlay follows, to some extent, the outline of the kozuka ana.

So, if the kozuka ana is a later addition, does it follow that the fine brass inlay around it is also later?

 

I know its condition is poor, but I'm glad that my tsuba was at least interesting to you.

 

Thanks again to all.

 

I'll see if I can get one or two more shots at an angle and in natural light when possible.

[kaigunair]

Nice pic Steve!

 

Mark, looks like I was incorrect about the kozuka ana...would seem original to the piece given the brass outline of Steve's example. My question now is whether all the spaces in your example would have also been inlayed. At least one void would seem to have held a chrysanthemum on a river (kikusui) This symbol would have represented Kusunoki Masashige (1330's), and would have represented loyalty to the emperor. The kikusui mon really makes me wonder how this plays into a momoyama period dating. The ashikaga would have been in power (1336–1573), after which time was the rise of the Oda-Hideyoshi-Tokugawa era. With a pro-emperor theme, would this indicate a particular region and time? Now I'd really like to know what the motif's mean on both Steve's example and the original tsuba!

 

Here is what the kikusui design might possibly say about the piece (along with current thoughts in tsuba construction and dating):

1) This is a piece contemporary with Masashige, which would mean really early Kamakura. (but this is supposed to be the era of nerikawa and tosho tsuba)

2) This is an nambokucho era period piece, made for someone in the southern court area signaling their protest of the Northern Court. Prior to the rise of the Tokugawa, Masahige would have been persona non grata in the northern court and up until the Edo era. (but the Onin war was later in 1470's, and even at that date, the thought is that brass designs are much simpler)

3) This is a momoyama era piece, based on current thought regarding construction - kikusui theme = ????.

4) This is a post momoyama era (Edo) piece, made after the Tokugawa started promoting neo-confucianism. (construction seems early)

 

A few reasons why my analysis would be completely off:

-it turns out the kikusui mon was used continuously after the 1330s.

-this is indeed an early plate where the brass was added later.

-the two tsuba are not by the same smith.

-maybe there is some tinkering needed with the current thoughts of tsuba construction history

 

Interesting or .....

[MarkB]

Thanks, Junichi.

Well, that's even more to think about.

here are a few more pics to hopefully show some details of the metal surface and one showing (maybe) even an "honourable battle scar) . . this would be on the mune side if on a mounted blade.

[Soshin]

Hi Mark B.,

 

The first photo does look like a sword cut and possible damage during a fight. The terms "mune" and "ha" only apply to Nihonto. The correct terms are "ura" and "omote". I think when you say the mune side you are referring to the ura side which is the side facing the blade when the sword is drawn.

[MarkB]

David, sorry if I wasn't clear. But, if this tsuba were mounted on a sword, then the little nick in the mimi would be consistent with a block from the mune of the blade. not from the ha or the ura or omote sides.

 

(edit: it's only a small detail, and probably isn't very important)

[Guido]

The terms "mune" and "ha" only apply to Nihonto. The correct terms are "ura" and "omote". I think when you say the mune side you are referring to the ura side which is the side facing the blade when the sword is drawn.

First of all, the cut is on the mimi, and neither the ura nor omoto. Secondly, I think Mark means exactly what he says: the cut is on the rim of the side of the tsuba that aligns with the mune of the sword.

 

Edit: Mark was a split second faster in replying than me.

[Soshin]

Hi Guido and Mark,

 

Guido yes I know that the rim of the tsuba is called a "mimi". Which means of all things ear or edge in Japanese. :lol: Sorry about not understand Mark's comment which isn't at all clear until he replied again with a clearer explanation of where the damage on the rim is located. Regardless this tsuba looks like it has some interesting history.

[kaigunair]

some additional info which has been relayed to me:

-the themes include water wheels, with, along with shippo and kikusui, indicate kyoto.

-the kikusui mon would have been kosher in kyoto and momoyama. Oda courted the court, and Hideyoshi himself had basically bought his titles from the imperial family (based in kyoto) so the kikusui wasn't as "non-grata" as I initially thought. Was more shunned by the early tokugawa who were asserting their power over the Imperial court; another reason why they set up their own HQ's in Edo vs Kyoto.

 

So momoyama period kyoto work is supported.

 

Some photos of "similar but different" heianjo tsuba:

[MarkB]

Thanks again, Junichi.

 

it seems that my poor old tsuba has seen better days.

 

I have a couple more tsuba featuring brass inlay, Heianjo style. I'll try to get some pics of them and post them in another thread in a few days time.