pascal Posted August 19, 2007 Report Posted August 19, 2007 Good morning list.... Minna san Konnichiwa.... I have been away a long time, although my interest has not vanished.... great to be back ! I recently bought a blade from Japan ; upon the advice of my good friend Jean , here in Paris, I had Tanobe Sensei write a Sayagaki.... I am learning Japanese, but it is already difficult with everyday conversation and reading...but these kanjis...give my western neurones some headache sometimes.... sumimasen... ちょっと おうえん ください .... Can anyone give me the signification on those 3 photos ? I have other photos, and more precise too... but I tried to reduce the size...sorry if I failed. Please inform me if I did something wrong... have a very nice day... Domo arigatou Gozaimasu... Pascal PS : I am in Japan for the first time in late October- early nov (Tokyo, kamakura, Kyoto, Nara, Osaka) .. I'd be delighted to receive off list suggestions... Quote
Jean Posted August 19, 2007 Report Posted August 19, 2007 Pascal, I do not see any pictures attached. I am glad you have decided to post pictures of the sayagaki (one of the most impressive in length I have ever seen) Here is a description (Naoe Shizu) Katana in Shirasaya. NBTHK Hozon paper. Signature : Mumei(unsigned) Oosuriage Mumei attributed as Naoe Shizu. The blade was polished (Mukansa polish) Blade length : 67.8cm or26.7inches. Sori : 1.8cm or0.71nch. Width at the hamachi : 2.9cm or 1,14nches. Width at the Sakihaba : 2.05cm or 0.81inches. Kasane : 0.67cm or 0.263 inches. Era : Nanbokucyo period. If Pascal agrees I can post a picture of the blade Quote
pascal Posted August 19, 2007 Author Report Posted August 19, 2007 Sumimasen..... here are the pics... I am not an expert obviously.... So I will try again..... Sorry for the quality...I am not an expert at shooting photos either.... Mon cher Jean.... I did not mention anything about the blade because I wanted to keep it somewhat discreet waiting for answers on the sayagaki.... Have a very nice day.... Mata kondo.... a bientot Jean Amitiés..soshite....domo arigatou Pascal Quote
Jean Posted August 19, 2007 Report Posted August 19, 2007 Mon cher Pascal, I only gave away the working sheet, knowing it wiil be discovered immediately by reading the first kanji (picture sayagaki 1bis) reads has follows: Mino kuni Naoe Shizu I have kept pictures of the blade, if you want to disclose them once the sayagaki is translated Amitiés Jean Quote
Darcy Posted August 19, 2007 Report Posted August 19, 2007 Wow, he spent a lot of time on this one. Off the top of my head without hitting the books, Top: Mino Kuni Naoe Shizu Comments: Column 1: Although shortened and unsigned, it is made by the smiths of Naoe Shizu, who are the school established by Shizu Kaneuji. (Think I missed some detail). The era is the middle (early?) Nanbokucho period. The jihada and hamon are very well done. Column 2: The deki (construction) (something complimentary, would have to look it up). Meiji 38 (1895) ... Haha, I will leave you with that there. He goes into something about the history of this sword, and I'm going to end up having to look into a lot of kanji and maybe get the meaning wrong. This commentary is why the sayagaki is longer than usual on this sword, so there is something significant here that he felt should be noted and preserved. I'd guess it was owned by someone important. Felicitations. Now you just have to wait in anticipation for our friendly neighborhood Japanese translator extraordinare to wake up in Tokyo :-). Quote
Darcy Posted August 19, 2007 Report Posted August 19, 2007 Also, you may wish to do people who are being asked to translate a favor, and rotate images and put them all together into a single page. This makes things much easier on the neck. Quote
Darcy Posted August 19, 2007 Report Posted August 19, 2007 Also I hope you left him a nice bottle of cognac or something for this very nice sayagaki. Quote
Nobody Posted August 20, 2007 Report Posted August 20, 2007 Here are the translations, although some English terms may be inappropriate. Also, I do not know who Mr. Miwa was. I am unsure about the reading of three kanji after Miwa. But I guess that they could be his given name or his post (assistant interpreter???). Anyway he seems to be a soldier who served in the Russo-Japanese War. 美濃國直江志津 Mino no kuni Naoe Shizu 但大磨上無銘也 同極ハ志津兼氏ノ門人等ヲ汎称スル者也 時代南北朝期 地刃共典型而 出来宜敷候 明治卅八年旅順之役ノ際三輪輔佐（or 佑?）象本刀ヲ携行シ奮闘セシニ仍リ熟慮断行ノ名號被付ト謂フ However, it is O-suriage and mumei. This attribution generally includes students of Shizu Kaneuji (志津兼氏). Era: Nanbokucho period. Both Ji and Ha are typical and its workmanship is good. At the battle of Lüshun (旅順) in Meiji 38th yr. (1905), Miwa ??? (三輪輔佐[or 佑?]象) bore this katana and fought well. So, it is said that it was given an honorable neme “Jukuryo Danko (熟慮断行 = To think deeply, act decisively)â€. 刃長貮尺二寸参分半有之 Blade length: 2 shaku 2 sun 3 and a half bu (= 67.72 cm) 干時丁亥歳皐月吉辰 （Tokini Hinoto-I no toshi Satsuki kisshin） 探山觀并誌 Date: a lucky day in May of 2007 Tanzan saw and wrote this. Quote
Darcy Posted August 20, 2007 Report Posted August 20, 2007 Very excellent! A meito with history... for the "Tanzan saw and wrote this" we usually translate that part as "Tanzan appraised and wrote this." He is stating that he evaluated the sword, and wrote the sayagaki with his own comments. I must go back and polish up my basic addition skills, haha. Quote
Nobody Posted August 20, 2007 Report Posted August 20, 2007 ... for the "Tanzan saw and wrote this" we usually translate that part as "Tanzan appraised and wrote this." He is stating that he evaluated the sword, and wrote the sayagaki with his own comments. Thanks Darcy, Actually, I realized the point. Generally, when a appraiser appraised a katana, he/she usually use a kanji "Kan (鑑 or 鑒)" which means "appraise". However, when he/she only see the katana and does not (or does not want to) appraise it, a kanji "Kan (観 or 觀) is used, which means just "see". [Ref. Tokuno Kazuo (得能一男)] This is only my general knowledge. And I do not think that this practice applies to this case. Quote
pascal Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Posted August 20, 2007 Darcy, Sorry for the side ways quality of the photos... I tried to do my best... And Koichi san and you, many thanks for the time you devoted in solving my little problem.... I will work on this now.... Actually when I bought this blade, it was accompanied by another sayagaki, and I knew this other one had to do with histoy, and was dated early 20th century. But I did not make photos of this other one.... maybe this would enlighten your views ? have a very nice day, and again, Domo arigatou gozaimasu... Pascal Quote
Jean Posted August 20, 2007 Report Posted August 20, 2007 Pascal, I have in store the original shirasaya with sayagaki, I can post it if you like :D :D It can be difficult to read as I had to resize thz picture Take care my friend Quote
Darcy Posted August 20, 2007 Report Posted August 20, 2007 Moriyama san, I guess I don't quite understand based on Tanobe sensei giving his appraisal in the sayagaki. In English the "saw" tends to be very passive ("I saw the car accident") but there is an evaluating sense too ("I came, I saw, I conquered.") Looking up the kanji, I saw this construction: 観ずる かんずる to view/to contemplate Is that the sense that is trying to be communicated? Quote
Nobody Posted August 20, 2007 Report Posted August 20, 2007 Darcy, I do not know why Tanobe sensei used 觀 instead of 鑒 in this case. There might be no special meaning in the choise of the kanji for him. Or he might use 觀 because the sayagaki included some hearsay evidence. Quote
Darcy Posted August 21, 2007 Report Posted August 21, 2007 Ah, I think that must be it. I spoke to him about his sayagaki once and about his choice of kanji, he said often times he will just use different kanji to mix things up and avoid using repeating phrases from sayagaki to sayagaki. But I think what you said makes sense, if he cannot himself verify the background of the piece he has probably taken that into account with his appraisal and choice of kanji when signing. I have a sword that was owned by the Nabeshima family. It had an old sayagaki done by Dr. Honma and then I had one done by Tanobe sensei. I am now wondering which character he used, when I have time I will have a look to see (since both of them wrote on their sayagaki it came from the Nabeshima family). Quote
pascal Posted August 26, 2007 Author Report Posted August 26, 2007 Sorry I was away for few days.... yes Darcy you are right I think : I have another older shirasaya with a sayagaki made at the beginning of 20th century it seems. So it is likely that Tanobe Sensei , just by reading the other sayagaki, put in his own sayagaki some of the history... So he quite rightly put that he "saw" (i reconized the kanji 見(る) for "mi"ru) and not what he feels, nor what he estimates.... If I can I will make some photos of the other one.... very different writing... and maybe some old kanjis which are barely used in present times.... I haven't looked at it since I received it from Japan.... :? Hope you are well....and , indeed, many thanks for both of you for your insights and time.... Best regards. Pascal Quote
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