To have polished OR not ??? your thoughts on it

[mr botanical]

Hey guys, title pretty much says it all, I know these dumb questions really bug people , but got know one to bounce thought off &

And I value your opinions

Blade in question has recently passed NPO shinza /score 72

attributed to 4th generation Noriyuki (1688-1704)

Polish is ok, all in all id place it right in the middle ground it does have various kizu pretty much typical for its age, "EDITED" to avoid topic drift

so, it appears to have plenty of "meat" left for the stones, no chips , geometry looks sound,

Problems are various scuffs, scraps, what appears to be blood spatter stains, and some micro rusty spots, so do I send it off for polish

or LEAVE IT ALONE aside from the normal maintenance/ preservation practices ,

any polishers hanging around here, my others haven't required any work this one is new to collection and unsure if worthy so to speak

thanks

[Fuuten]

Experienced togishi won't take out those battle scars. Maybe what you want is just a slight touch up polish.

[Brian]

How do you know some 8 year old kid and his friend didn't have a sword fight with a machette?

There is no way to know if marks are made from battle or not (unless you still have a piece of blade stuck in it like some that have been shown)

It is just fanciful dreaming in my opinion, especially since swords weren't used to block mostly. Sometimes they might be battle scars. Those handed down from generation to generation in important families. But once they hit the West, anything can happen.

I wouldn't let that prevent a polish, and they certainly don't increase the value of a sword. Polishers may leave them showing, but they won't work around them to deliberately leave them in place.

I would polish. Do you leave nicks in the blade edge in place in case they were caused against armour?

 

Brian

[Geraint]

I can see it now on all sorts of Ebay offerings, "See where the edge was chipped against samurai armour in battle, an honourable scar!"

[Fuuten]

Sure they wouldn't prefer blocking with the cutting edge, but generally the back side was used and able in blocking or getting in a standoff? Mune against each other.

[kusunokimasahige]

I agree with Brian on the possibility that the nicks could have come from other things than battle alone.

 

I do not however agree with his following statement :

 

especially since swords weren't used to block mostly

 

That is simply not true. Anyone having experienced or trained Koryu knows that blocking with the mune is a big part of the entire scope of Japanese swordfighting. These things happened and more often than you might want to believe.

 

However, during the Edo period itself (after the siege of Osaka and not counting the Shimabara rebellion) with the ban on duelling (which was at times not adhered to by Samurai), less and less fights were fought, untill the turmoil at the end of this period ending in the Boshin war and Satsuma rebellion.

 

So in Sengoku blades it would be more common to see than in Edo period blades except for those used in battle towards the end.

 

In general these nicks on the mune are left and not polished out.

 

KM

[Brian]

Deflect, yes. But outright block?

 

Brian

[kusunokimasahige]

Ah ! I get what you meant now.

 

That might be the case, as is noted here :

 

"It should be noted that the same physical laws regarding edge damage also apply to the use of traditional Asian swords. For example, in one interview an expert of the Japanese, Daito-Ryu style, senior swordmaster Tokimune Takeda noted: “In order to cut your opponent, you need to set the blade of your sword in a specific position; you need to turn your sword this way [gesturing]. You receive your opponent’s sword with the [blunt] back of your sword and then you turn your sword to cut him. This is not how you hit your opponent with a bokken [wooden sword]. Since a real sword has a sharp blade, you need to receive your opponent’s blade with the back of your sword. You should not receive it with your blade [edge] because if you do so using a real sword, the blade will be nicked. But if you receive your opponent’s sword with the back of your sword and then go to cut him with your blade, the cutting edge will never be nicked.” However, the interview author also comments that: “Other classical sword schools, such as the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and the Tatsumi-ryu, taught to receive cuts with either the side of the blade or the lower edge. This is because the metal making up the back of a Japanese sword is softer, and a direct blow to the back of the blade would 'likely' cause it to snap.

 

Practitioners of these schools were evidently willing to risk a nick to avoid breaking the sword.” (Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu: Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters, edited by Stanley A. Pranin. Koryu Books, 2000. Copyright 1995 by Aiki News.) However, noted swordsmith Paul Champagne, who studies the historical technology of both European and Asian blades, notes that softer steel, by its nature, does not "snap" but rather, simply dings more easily. He adds that not all of the construction techniques for Japanese swords had soft backs. A strong cut on the back can cause an edge defect to open up with the natural rebound of the blade. (Personal correspondence with the author, September, 2004). In contrast to Japanese, Medieval European cutting-swords do not have an outer layer of softer metal and were designed to be especially resilient when receiving blows on their flat sides. "

( http://www.thearma.org/essays/damageded ... DkXJxZIp1o)

 

KM

[1tallsword]

at the end of the day these decisions you can only make for yourself. do some research, ask questions (as you are doing right now) you will find you will get many different answers. choose the one that you are happy with, after all your the one that has to like what you have done. as to the comments about blocking or deflecting, i agree with both and im sure both happened. since none of us were alive hundreds of years ago and at best we have books,stories,literature and traditions to go on, we really cant say what a sword was used for.. never say never! sure we can rationalize what samurai did in general have codes for fighting,traditions passed one and a standard of ethics. but did all fight the same? do all fight the same today? ive seen a couple with some very interesting technique. it is right to say we can only assume that they are battle scars, but at the end of the day we must judge the area,patina,age,angle ect... even if steel is present from another sword is not a definitive answer, who's to stop someone from sticking metal in it,or anyone for that matter foolin around hitting swords and one got like that?

[Darcy]

The way I generally interpret them is that any US-found sword at auction/ebay/table with battle scars on it are from the above stated 8 year old sword fights. Of course some of these have since been restored and maybe some scars left on it and it can become hard to tell after polish and they will end up on western dealer sites in nice condition with papers. So I think it is fair to keep a conservative mindset about the origin of these marks in this context.

 

Even so at least they did not break still

 

If the sword has never been outside of Japan and is something like the following, I assume that it is probably a legit old honor mark.

 

[Kronos]

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu

 

That's the oldest one still in existence isn't it? I would love to practice it if there was anywhere nearby however it's too rare outside of Japan unfortunately. Pre Sengoku and as we know the Japanese like to adhere to things so it probably hasn't changed much if at all in that time so is an excellent source of information.

[kusunokimasahige]

Years ago my professor W. van Gulik showed our class in Univ his sword which had been in his family since the war. It was in a bad state chipped all around. One student asked him whether they were battle scars on which he answered, no, we cut wood for our fireplace with it when we were kids, and ignorant.

 

KM

[cabowen]

If you are buying a sword directly from a vet family and it has kiri-komi, unless they have two swords, the kiri-komi are often original and not done by an 8 year old. If they have more than one sword, and there are hako-bore in the other sword, then it is most likely abusive damage. Also, the number and placement of the kiri-komi can often times be telling whether they are original or the result of play. It takes a substantial blow with something much more than a steak knife to put a good kiri-komi in the mune of a sword. Additionally, many times questioning the family about how and where the sword was kept will give you insight. For example, if they tell you they found it in the attic/basement/crawl space and no one knew uncle/grandfather/dad had it, odds are good it was kept hidden and not played with. Most of the time, if it has been abused, they will tell you that as kids, they played with it, or it was used to weed wack, etc.

 

Also, keep in mind that fresh kiri-komi look quite different from those that are older and have been through a polish or many.

 

Hako-bore and broken kissaki are the more common sign of abuse.

 

I once was at a small historical museum to evaluate their "sword". They pulled out a nice, long, Sukesada with full mei and date. It had a serrated mune so I asked where the other sword was..sheepishly, they then pulled out a beautiful Masahide wakizashi with amazing horimono. Sadly, very sadly, the edge was now serrated with hako-bore, almost perfect 1/4" chips all down the ha...Now, either this the lost "Nokogiri Masahide", or some kids had at it...When I asked whose handy work this was, the curator admitted that as kids they had "sword fought" with them, and showed me the cuts in the trim around several doors in the place. They were lucky they hadn't lost any fingers or worse. Unfortunately, the Masahide was ruined and the Sukesada would need considerable steel removed to ever look remotely normal....What a shame....

 

Of course, if you buy it from a dealer or other party removed from the original bring back, all you have to go on are the type, location, and number of kiri-komi for a hint at what happened and can never know with certainty.

[MLanteigne]

Take this FWIW, but my current instructor and a few others were given the opportunity to see some of the Royal Ontario Museum's nihonto which were not out on display. Any damage to them were to the ha side of the monouchi. It would be interesting to see where the majority of swords from various periods in Japan suffered damage.

 

For me personally, turning the side or back of my blade toward my enemy isn't my cup of tea!

[mr botanical]

How do you know some 8 year old kid and his friend didn't have a sword fight with a machette?

There is no way to know if marks are made from battle or not (unless you still have a piece of blade stuck in it like some that have been shown)

It is just fanciful dreaming in my opinion, especially since swords weren't used to block mostly. Sometimes they might be battle scars. Those handed down from generation to generation in important families. But once they hit the West, anything can happen.

I wouldn't let that prevent a polish, and they certainly don't increase the value of a sword. Polishers may leave them showing, but they won't work around them to deliberately leave them in place.

I would polish. Do you leave nicks in the blade edge in place in case they were caused against armour?

 

 

Brian

sorry guys notifications wasnt turned on,

hi brian, great site here to answer your reply, of course ANYTHING can and does happen and yes a bit of a romantic thing but... isnt that part of the experience, anyway back on topic by riddled with battle marks I should learn to be more specific, she has marks NOT machette combat lol

after staring for 8 months at this one she has a few spots that just say OLD combat dont know how to explain better but will try and see if I can put some pics for your opinions....

[mr botanical]

Experienced togishi won't take out those battle scars. Maybe what you want is just a slight touch up polish.

Exactly, think'n best bet is to open a window just NEED togishi

[mr botanical]

Sure they wouldn't prefer blocking with the cutting edge, but generally the back side was used and able in blocking or getting in a standoff? Mune against each other.

Yep appears to be a parry off spine, clean strike with "intention" a strike I wouldnt recommend trying to replicate lol

[mr botanical]

Deflect, yes. But outright block?

 

Brian

Yes deflection/parry

Based from strike angle and impact location, so to try to clarify a bit

marks are not willy nilly, do not show any signs of child cutting weeds so to speak....

I guess I'll just smile at the spirited debate

but back on point before the lights get turned out

I'll opt for a window and let togishi decide, so ANY very good ones on the west coast? !? I know dying breed and all but one can hope right

[cabowen]

Jimmy Hayashi, San Francisco. Fully trained professional.

 

Takeo Seki, Vancouver, Canada. Fully trained professional.

 

Either will do a proper job.

[mr botanical]

Jimmy Hayashi, San Francisco. Fully trained professional.

 

Takeo Seki, Vancouver, Canada. Fully trained professional.

 

Either will do a proper job.

 

Thanks for the lead friend, anyone got Jimmy Hayashi's contact info you could PM my way?

thanks

[mr botanical]

as for the conversation is "kiri-komi" or knocked on a lamp shade, i submit the two marks in question

naked eye angles say kiri-komi, at 60x magnification says kiri-komi