Any Info would be helpful

[WM]

I found this in my Grandpa's stuff in the garage. he past away 30+ years ago... nana doesn't remember it... does anyone have any info on where I can find out more? there is no stamp or id on the tang at all. the peg holding the handle on was wooden and the handle cord came unwrapped while I was trying to get the peg out... turns out the peg was by the tsuba and I was trying to free the handle by removing the ornament....I guess that makes me a dummy. I have no experience with this and hope I haven't messed up terribly. I am attaching a couple pics but I can send high res to anyone interested. They were good friends with a museum curator who often gave them presents when he came back from collecting...as I messed up I almost hope it's not valuable there are dragonfly's on the sheath and it looks as if it was sharpened by a rock. the butt of the handle has a dragon and so does the tsuba.

Thanks in advance

Bill

[stekemest]

Can you show photos of the nakago (tang) and kissaki (tip) and give the measurements (especially the blade's length, without tang)?

[WM]

Thanks for the reply. The measurement from the tang to the tip ( where the tang ends and the blade starts meaasured agains the back of the blade is 27.5" exactly. Total length is 34.5" tip to tip. Both side of tang are photographed and those with one sided tip shot are attached. Thanks again! Tsuba is just shy of 3" in diameter by the way!

[nagamaki - Franco]

hi, it is difficult to tell with any certainty what this sword might be from these pics. However, it has a "kanbun period shape " (do a search). Unwrapping the handle was a , but nothing that can't be properly restored. Additional closeup pics of the tsuba and the other fittings ?? (fuchi, kashira, menuki) might be helpful.

[stekemest]

Hi WM,

Your sword is a real nihonto - that's the first good message.

It seems to have a shortened nakago and has been remounted several times (as it has three mekugi-ana, or holes in the tang). It seems to have nearly no sori, which is typical for a period called "kanbun" (1661–1673). So I guess your sword is from that time.

 

Regards,

Peter

[WM]

Thanks Peter! :D I was wrong it is 28" i measured where the copper fitting was ( is it copper?)not from the back blade notch. So what do I do now? any suggestions ??and what should it cost to get it cleaned up? also any guesses to relative worth? or where I can take it?

[stekemest]

Hi WM,

 

It should be examined by a polisher (togishi), who could say if your blade has any serious flaws and if it is worth to be polished. Where are you from? There are many polishers outside Japan in Europe and the States, but often with a long waiting time and high prices.

 

Peter

[WM]

Peter, I am in the NYC tri state area. What is expensive? I tried to take a better pic of the fittings. and one has the charm that was wrapped into the handle. Thanks again for your time, it is a fascinating but a little overwhelming subject.

Regards,

Bill

[stekemest]

Hi!

 

Expensive: Well, here in Germany it's usually roughly 10 Euro (13 USD) per cm blade length. I don't know what the prices of other polishers are.

 

The "charm": That's called menuki. It's usually a pair with one on each side of the handle (tsuka). The handle needs to be rewrapped, but that's nothing that can't be fixed.

[kusunokimasahige]

This sure is a lucky moth for many people!!

very nice find!!

 

well worth polishing and restoring it!!

 

KM

[pcfarrar]

The nakago-jiri is nicely done and that can quite often be a sign of quality on suriage sword.

[nagamaki - Franco]

hi Bill,

 

It might be suggested looking into joining the NYC sword study group, if you're genuinely interested in learning about nihonto. http://www.ny-tokenkai.org/

 

Take things slow and learn first, there's a lot to know.

[WM]

Thanks to everyone, if you would like to add anything it is appreciated! My first sword and it's a doozy!

 

If all this is true it would appear the old family friend was a great friend! I hope I can restore it.

 

If anyone has recommendations of a good polisher in the NYC area I would be happy to hear of it...

 

Also any venture of a guess on worth? Should I be calling my insurance company?

 

By the way there was only one charm? does that mean anything? and from what I can tell te handle wrapping was not traditional just white cord ( silk) wrapped around... I am sorry to use my english appllications for the identifications ( i know it is rude) the Japanese is brand new to me and I am just trying to learn.

[mike yeon]

Bill,

 

I'm in NYC and we have a great sword club (http://www.ny-tokenkai.org) that meets roughly once a month. If you're close to the city, you can bring the sword to a meeting and get some good opinions and direction. Next one is Sept 23rd.

 

The nearest togishi I know of, Moses Beccera, is a member of the club and a Japanese trained polisher based on long island. You can try contacting him through his site (http://www.nihontoantiques.com)

 

mike

[stekemest]

Well, at least the tsuka had been correctly wrapped in former times, as you can see the marks on the same (rayskin).

 

If you're interested in the topic, get yourself some books: I prefer you start with John M. Yumoto's "Samurai Sword" and continue with Kokan Nagayama's "The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords". The first one is good to start with, as it delievers the basic information without confusing the beginner with too many details. The second one is much more detailed.

[nagamaki - Franco]

  WM said:

Thanks to everyone, if you would like to add anything it is appreciated! My first sword and it's a doozy!

 

If all this is true it would appear the old family friend was a great friend! I hope I can restore it.

 

If anyone has recommendations of a good polisher in the NYC area I would be happy to hear of it...

 

Also any venture of a guess on worth? Should I be calling my insurance company?

 

By the way there was only one charm? does that mean anything? and from what I can tell te handle wrapping was not traditional just white cord ( silk) wrapped around... I am sorry to use my english appllications for the identifications ( i know it is rude) the Japanese is brand new to me and I am just trying to learn.

 

As Mike suggested, Moses would be a good person to contact about sword restoration and value.

 

As for the charm, 'menuki' come in pairs and it is likely that one has been lost or misplaced.

 

another helpful link http://world.choshuya.co.jp/explanation/index.htm

[Darcy]

I second the suggestion to bring the sword to Moses and also join the NYTK and bring the sword in for people to see. Lots of good people in that club.

 

It is a real shame that you unwrapped the tsuka . Hold on to the wrapping, it is possible (though I don't know for sure) that someone can re-wrap it.

 

I do not think the sword is a Kanbun period piece. Kanbun swords are not very long, you'd be expecting something like 69cm. You say 28" so just over 71cm, making the sword an inch larger.

 

However, look at the nakago, between the upper two holes there is a very clear difference in patina. THere are actually two lines there that I see, and I think the rightmost is from the time the bottommost hole was the functional mekugiana, and the leftmost is from the middle hole.

 

It may be that the bottom hole is not the original one and it is lost.

 

A long, robust, and straightish sword like this is the inspiration for the swords of the early Shinto period, that were made to look like shortened Nanbokucho period blades. The upper portion on these blades tended to be straighter than swords that came before and after them. I think that is what you have, a shortened middle period Nanbokucho sword, from when they were made extremely long. One would normally be thinking of a larger kissaki though yours doesn't seem at first glance to match that overall pattern.

 

I'll also note that there is some distortion from the angle that you're shooting that makes the sword appear to be straighter than it is. If you measure the sori and let us know, that will help.

 

The nakagojiri according to Tanobe sensei indicates a shortening done around the Momoyama period, after this you would tend to see kiri.

 

Then again, it could be an early Shinto piece dummied up to appear older. I'd think in this case though they'd go with a kiri cut to seal the deal. Looking at the steel in person will answer that one, and/or after polish it will be very clear as there is a night and day difference between Nanbokucho and Shinto works.

 

Anyway, another nice "attic find" by dudes coming out of the woodwork, please take good care of it, restore the damage you did and slap yourself on the wrist.

 

I would like to know what Moses has to say after you bring the piece to him. If it polishes and is Nambokucho period it should probably be papered. The high hamon reminds me of Sekishu swords and these smiths seem to not have made o-kissaki (at least I haven't seen any from them).

[Darcy]

I would also like to see more clear pictures of the steel because the hamon looks like it is full of scratch marks. I don't know why that is, but it is not normal.

 

I would also like to see a closeup of the menuki.

[Curran]

Dear Bill,

 

I am in Darien, CT and there is another knowledgable collector in New Canaan. I believe Moses is in Long Island.

 

You should attend the next NYC meeting. It will be in September (no meeting in August because of the San Fran show).

 

If you are in the area, let me know. If you are in New Jersey, there are several good collectors in Jersey City and we can put you in touch with them.

 

Curran

[WM]

So I figured the easiest way to help you see the curvature is to shoot it on th straight edge of my hardwood floor... I had to look up Menuki to figure out what you meant but I got that too...like I said before the Japanese is confusing to the newbie, and there is only one...No chance of rewrapping the cord it seems to be made of many fine strands of white fiber (is that Silk?) as it broke in the middle of the handle....but I saved it anyway....

[WM]

I am just down the road as they say...do you have a good knowledge of these things? If so could we meet before? I am currently on 2 week vacation and my business explodes in Sept. I am hoping to go to the meeting but there is always a chance I will have to put it of... This is my free time....

[WM]

Deflection measurement is 1/2 inch. I forgot to add that, do I need to measure anyting else? I have included 2 good shots of tsuba. Any ideas why the knife hole is plugged? also ther appears to be little pieces of copper wedged into the fitting of the tsubs ( I guess used for sizing) but it appears to be Iron.

 

Thanks again to everyone you all are so nice. :D

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi, the menuki is a "shishi" with a "peony" (bud) and ???(man) , can't quite make it out (focus).

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shishi.shtml

 

pic of back side of menuki?

[WM]

Here are Hopefully 2 better pictures of my Lone Menuki the back spacer appears to be copper (actually all of it is copper) It looks to me to be a Dragon eating a a man ... Please...What is a shishi?

[Darcy]

Hmm, that is pretty straight. I rotated the image around in Photoshop and put it on its end and if this had a tsuka on I'd have said Kanbun Shinto like everyone else. Starting to wonder if it really is and the nakago was dummied up.

 

Is it possible to see this hamon and the steel of the sword from closer than five feet away? Those scratches bother me and I would like to know if they are obscuring the hamon or replacing the hamon.

 

They are not from the scabbard rubbing on the sword because they are too intense and they are wavy, like someone was trying to simulate the shape of the hamon with them.

 

They really catch the light in that picture. At best, someone screwed around a lot with the sword I think. Without looking closer it's not possible to know what exactly is going on.

[AndreasU]

Pffff,

 

the "rub marks" are clearly trys of using a cutting disc to sharpen the edge. I know these patterns quite well because sometimes I use stuff like this to remove rust from metal parts.

 

From the size it cold have been a Dremel.

 

I follow the aproches of the others. Do better closeups and/or try to get an appointment with Moses.

 

He is a nice guy and for sure one of the Pro`s in the states.

Andreas U.

[Darcy]

What Andreas said sounds plausible. Let's hope it was a dremel as that won't generate enough heat to kill the hamon. Larger tool... eek. Silicon carbide on steel .

[nagamaki - Franco]

  WM said:

Please...What is a shishi?

 

shishi click here http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shishi.shtml

 

Definitely a shishi and not a dragon, and certainly not eating a man. It almost appears to be a sea shell of sort, not sure.

[AndreasU]

  Darcy said:

What Andreas said sounds plausible. Let's hope it was a dremel as that won't generate enough heat to kill the hamon. Larger tool... eek. Silicon carbide on steel .

 

I set one on top and say that, after I had another look to it, that someone tried to "imitate" a hamon.

 

Bad aproach! Especially because it looks that it is not long ago........

[Curran]

Dear WM,

 

My wife and I are renting here in Darien, CT. We are Florida residents that decided to avoid the hurricanes this summer. We were residents of Jersey City for over a decade, and I have remained a member of the New York club since it is a good club. I will be attending the September meeting.

We are staying on Post Road near the Trader Joes. If you want to arrange to meet, then feel free to contact me at:

 

neobliviscar@yahoo.com

 

I claim to be a 'fittings' guy more interested in things like your menuki, but I have a very good foundation of knowledge with swords. I have one of my swords here in CT and can give you a crash course academic introduction. The only drawback is that my extensive library is in Florida.

The most comprehensively knowledgable person in the NY/NJ/CT area is an older Japanese gentleman in Jersey City. Moses is a well recognized polisher, and has a technical eye that can assess how well the sword would survive polish and if any serious damage has been done by the 'sharpening'. He is almost always at the NYC club meeting.

 

If you are local, we can meet up any time after this Friday. I would be glad to do it, as my personal belief is I would like to see as many of these functional works of art preserved as possible.

 

Curran Campbell