another mei

[Splidge]

Hello all, I would appreciate your help with a translation, I have just bought a Menuki with the following mei on a small plate on the reverse of it. Not sure which way around the picture should be so apologies if its the wrong way around.

regards

frank.

[Splidge]

Just an update about the menuki? it arrived today and I've posted some pictures, I know nothing about these items so any help would be appreciated.

I think it is made of brass? does the reverse normaly have a mei on it? Is it an original or reproduction? I think possibly the previous owner cleaned the reverse, he has told me he bought a job lot of military buttons and in amongst them was this piece, I like it, its almost smiling, I think

Thanks in advance

 

Frank

[roninjje]

the shame of it is, the crud on the inside is much like the patina on the nakago, something you want to retain. The plate is signed ichi something. I don't have a dictionary handy to give you the remainder. But I do not like the solder marks at the top of the plate.

[Nobody]

The mei looks "Ichijo (一乗)" of Goto (後藤).

[Splidge]

Roninjje many thanks for your input I figured as much about the “crud†, as for the solder marks I have to say under a very strong watch makers eye piece it does not look like solder at all but it is very much like where a small punch was used to push the edge over to hold it in place, if you look at the edge of the claw on the left and right hand side of the picture you will notice a small amount of “wear†which is the same colour as those marks, so perhaps because of its age the gold plate has worn away a bit

Koichi san many thanks for your translation so as I under stand it Ichi means “one†and the Goto is the place “Mizu-No-Ura†but the translation is “Ichijo of Goto†from looking for some meaning to this, I found “Ichijo†possibly to mean one of the following,

Emperor Ichijō (一条天皇 - tennō), emperor of Japan (980-1011)

Or The Ichijō family (一条家 - ke), one of the five regent houses (go-sekke) of the Fujiwara clan in Japan. I suppose there are more interpritations but I like these two

Regards

Frank

[Nobody]

Koichi san many thanks for your translation so as I under stand it Ichi means “one†and the Goto is the place “Mizu-No-Ura†but the translation is “Ichijo of Goto†from looking for some meaning to this, I found “Ichijo†possibly to mean one of the following,

Emperor Ichijō (一条天皇 - tennō), emperor of Japan (980-1011)

Or The Ichijō family (一条家 - ke), one of the five regent houses (go-sekke) of the Fujiwara clan in Japan. I suppose there are more interpritations but I like these two

Ah, not that Ichijo.

FYI; Goto family and Goto Ichijo (see the top of the following page)

http://tsuba.jyuluck-do.com/Assortment.html

 

However, I do not know if your mei is genuine or not. It is a big name.

[Splidge]

Koichi san, I like my findings better :lol: but none the less if this piece is genuine and there is realy nothing to suggest that it is not, and it is from this family then it is from what seems to be a very good house indeed, are menuki normaly signed with the mei only this is the first one I have seen not mounted and have been able to hold and have a realy good look at I know.

 

regards

 

Frank

[Darcy]

Goto Ichijo is a really big name. So he is likely to be faked. Normally menuki will be unsigned, but signed pieces are not that uncommon.

 

It looks like a nice menuki but I think the over-the-top quality that one would expect from Goto Ichijo is not quite there. I am the last person to listen to on kodogu though.

[Brian]

Yep..remember this is the signature a particular guy in the Goto school of work, and not a family as such. Gimei menuki mei aren't as common as on fuchi and tsuba maybe? Just a guess, but since they would be hidden from view, why fake the mei?

I guess with a name like this though, gimei is always suspected, and the work here looks fairly nice, but maybe not top level work.

That should be gold, and not brass if I am correct.

 

The big question here is if you have one single menuki here, or a matching pair?

If only one...hmmm. Not sure how desirable a single menuki is, no matter which artist made it.

 

Brian

[Splidge]

Thanks Darcy I suppose really I should take it to some where like the V & A museum? And let them have a look, Could always let the armourer where I work have a look, but I’m not sure if this is one of his fields of expertise, unless you can suggest some where over here that I could take it to that could verify its authenticity. The scan I did does not do it justice, it is far better in hand.

Brian, not sure about being gold, perhaps plated? Not sure, there are no marks to say it is or is not. There is just the one menuki unfortunately not the matching pair it was found in amongst a job lot of military buttons, I only paid a few pounds for it, as for being desirable as there is only one, well I bought it because I liked it, like I mentioned earlier it looks far better in the flesh so to speak.

 

Frank.

[Bungo]

" Just a guess, but since they would be hidden from view, why fake the mei "

 

the samurai of old did not buy menuki via e-bay ( like under tsuka ito wrap )...................

 

milt the ronin

[Darcy]

Goto work would probably be in gold. Discoloration can come from impurities and a lot of time. I used to do precious metal work and there is this kind of talk about gold patina, and gold is not supposed to patina if it's pure.

 

As soon as one of the guys who likes to examine fittings mei gets his books out he will probably give you a reliable answer on this. You could try the museum or the Token society or maybe Christie's.

 

Even on its own, a signed Ichijo if legitimate will be attractive to someone, but not at 50% of the value of the pair.

[nagamaki - Franco]

hi,

 

Darcy's notion is correct, authentic work would be 22c gold or more. Even Goto uttori work, which this is not, would have used pure gold leaf.

The two things that immediately capture ones attention here is; the gold has a high copper content judging from the color, secondly, it lacks evidence of hand tool work. Also, the tab on the back gives an indication this could be a cast piece.

Sorry, but there isn't anything here that indicates Ichijo or Goto work.

 

The following link provides authentic examples for 16 mainline generations of Goto, including some with "Goto dragon" work. While Ichijo had the reputation of doing work that was slightly unorthodox, his dragon would be much the same as the dragons made by previous generations.

 

http://world.choshuya.co.jp/gallary/goto/index.htm

 

check out Rich T's tosogu.com archives for Goto articles, too.

[Splidge]

Whilst I see what you say, I would not take the colour you see as actual, in hand it is darker and does not show any discolouration, I did compare my dragons head to your link, not much difference , I had a quick butchers on ebay, sounds daft I know but I found this book up for auction, and going by the photos listed, there is not much difference at all, between the ones shown and mine imho, but then I am not an expert.

 

See pictures : 1, 2, 6, and 10.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :middle:uk

 

I think as has been suggested it would be better to get it looked at in hand.

 

Frank

[nagamaki - Franco]

here is a link (below) to an image of a pair of menuki made from solid gold as yours proposes to be, this hopefully should begin to give you some idea of what you should be seeing. As you carefully study the work, overtime the difference between real and copy will become much more pronounced.

Its never easy.

 

http://bp1.blogger.com/_TwmTBRlZK2Q/RYXe30t7AAI/AAAAAAAAAAU/HJt37SLnLqs/s1600-h/scan0003.jpg

 

another thought is, the next time you're near a jeweler ask to have the gold content metered.

[Guest reinhard]

Darcy said it all. Goto Ichijo was one of the greatest Kinko masters of the 19th century and the quality of his work is way above this piece. Don't argue about carats or soldering. Looking at Ichijo's genuine work makes the difference obvious immediately.