Possibly old 77" Nodachi & Saya opinions

[Jinx33]

I came across this for a cheap price at an estate sale, and instantly noticed that it seems to be very old. The blade is not in the best condition, as I'm sure it was used in battle a few times. Looks to be polished many many times. One thing that is interesting is the saya has old Japanese written on the underside of the cover where it has torn and split. I have never seen anything like it. The nakago has a fair bit of age, and some bad rust, and does show faint file marks. The blade measures just over 50". Would anyone know the age and name of this? Would it be considered a Nodachi? I would assume that these blades are rare? Thank you

[Jinx33]

more pics

[hxv]

Looks to be of dubious Chinese origin (my opinion only).

 

Hoanh

[Nickupero]

I strongly agree with you Hoanh, I must say its better than some of the others I've seen.

[Jinx33]

  Nickupero said:

I strongly agree with you Hoanh, I must say its better than some of the others I've seen.

 

Thank you both for your opinions. Would you mind explaining why you think that? I mean, there is so much patina on the bronze fittings. Seems that there are parts that are too hard to fake age.

[bone]

Hmmm, I don't know. I've never seen a chinese fake that looks that bad. Hey Jinx? You're likely to get more feed back if you go to new member introductions. Just click on the Nihonto message board at the top of the screen (in bold letters) then general nihonto disscusion. It's the 4th or 5th thread down.

[Gabriel L]

Hello Gray and welcome to the NMB.

 

Sadly I must agree that this object is absolutely a recent Chinese / Indian / other SE Asian fake… a bad one at that.

 

Such items are pounded out in absolutely massive numbers every year. In the last sixteen years I think I must have seen at least a thousand. Just as true nihontō have many qualities that give them a certain recognizable "flavor" or characteristic, so these kinds of fakes have commonalities that make them instantly discernible with just a little experience. Some concrete examples (many of which this object exhibit) include:

 

• terrible shaping / wobbly lines / soft lines
  
• unusual proportions on everything
  
• elongated lumpy brass fittings
  
• poorly done artificial aging with patchy application and weird colors (usually via sloppy chemical application or simple weathering techniques)
  
• labor-saving "decorative" methods (e.g. thinly stenciled designs)
  
• lack of hamon or very bad cosmetic (fake) hamon
  
• coarse puddly low-count pattern welding masquerading as hada
  
• aggressive acid etches of the above
  
• meaningless kaisho kanji horimono in the blade area, usually acid-etched
  
• complete lack of seamlessness and alignment between components
  
• nontraditional materials, missing samé
  
• incorrect tsukamaki patterns (e.g. all the twists in a pseudo-hineri-maki going the same way, à la Satsuma-style work but worse)
  
• a horribly formed kissaki with no crisp yokote or mitsukado
  
• etc. etc. etc.

 

However it is not so much an issue of going through a checklist so much as it is about developing a gestalt sense of "rightness" or "wrongness" that comes simply from study and exposure.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I strongly recommend that you hold off on any purchases for a while, and commit to some studying. I wrote a basic beginner's guide on Reddit which includes book lists, information site links, club and show directories, etc. At the very least I suggest you check out Rich T.'s nice article on real vs fake swords, and pick up an intro book like The Art of the Japanese Sword. Although this is probably a disappointment, I sincerely hope that you continue to hang out here and view lots of real swords; you will quickly pick up on the differences.

 

Regards, —G.

[hxv]

Gray,

 

Gabriel did an excellent job and gave good suggestions. Buy some (relatively inexpensive) books, do some reading, go on the web to dealers' website to look at authentic nihonto in good condition. After a few months, you can tell the Chinese fakes without too much trouble. The downside is that after a while, you would wish you were in a higher tax bracket. Welcome to the board!

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Jorgensen]

Absolutely fake, no doubt.

 

One hint... the filemarks are not even and very poorly done... amongst all the other issues stated by the other members.

[Jinx33]

  Gabriel L said:

Hello Gray and welcome to the NMB.

 

Sadly I must agree that this object is absolutely a recent Chinese / Indian / other SE Asian fake… a bad one at that.

 

Such items are pounded out in absolutely massive numbers every year. In the last sixteen years I think I must have seen at least a thousand. Just as true nihontō have many qualities that give them a certain recognizable "flavor" or characteristic, so these kinds of fakes have commonalities that make them instantly discernible with just a little experience. Some concrete examples (many of which this object exhibit) include:

 

• terrible shaping / wobbly lines / soft lines
  
• unusual proportions on everything
  
• elongated lumpy brass fittings
  
• poorly done artificial aging with patchy application and weird colors (usually via sloppy chemical application or simple weathering techniques)
  
• labor-saving "decorative" methods (e.g. thinly stenciled designs)
  
• lack of hamon or very bad cosmetic (fake) hamon
  
• coarse puddly low-count pattern welding masquerading as hada
  
• aggressive acid etches of the above
  
• meaningless kaisho kanji horimono in the blade area, usually acid-etched
  
• complete lack of seamlessness and alignment between components
  
• nontraditional materials, missing samé
  
• incorrect tsukamaki patterns (e.g. all the twists in a pseudo-hineri-maki going the same way, à la Satsuma-style work but worse)
  
• a horribly formed kissaki with no crisp yokote or mitsukado
  
• etc. etc. etc.

 

However it is not so much an issue of going through a checklist so much as it is about developing a gestalt sense of "rightness" or "wrongness" that comes simply from study and exposure.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I strongly recommend that you hold off on any purchases for a while, and commit to some studying. I wrote a basic beginner's guide on Reddit which includes book lists, information site links, club and show directories, etc. At the very least I suggest you check out Rich T.'s nice article on real vs fake swords, and pick up an intro book like The Art of the Japanese Sword. Although this is probably a disappointment, I sincerely hope that you continue to hang out here and view lots of real swords; you will quickly pick up on the differences.

 

Regards, —G.

[Marius]

Jinx,

 

1:

 

2:

what do you want to say with this lengthy quote?