kunitaro Posted October 8, 2014 Author Report Posted October 8, 2014 but in fact, The Shumei by Honnami Choshiki is more important than NBTHK Juyo paper...I feel bitter when I look back... The Shumei of Honnami Choshiki is orginal. and The sayagaki is "Matsuura Go". so, this tanto has been a collection of Matsuura family. Choshiki did Shumei (because, Ubu-mumei) and Sayagaki for the family in early Meiji period. and it has been as it for more than 100 years till when i took them off. It was a part of unique history of this sword. After new Torokusho and new shirasaya. It become a tanto with NBTHK Juyo paper with no record. That I feel bitter about it. and how long will the BNTHK paper last ? will be exist next 100 years ? I don't know. About Choshiki's bad history ??? as we know that the history is written by Victor…… About Saiba. There is more than a few Saiba blades with Hozon papers now. I did make a few sword re-tempered and submitted Hozon and got them. If you know what and how they examine, you can trick them. Just to get Hozon (low ranking attribution) is not very difficult. That is why I feel the Shumei of Choshiki is more important than NBTHK paper. Ofcause, the market price is big different, but, it is for people who can not see the quality of the blade by themselves. for people who can recognize the quality, I think that they prefer the tanto with old Shumei. It is my recent opinion.
kusunokimasahige Posted October 8, 2014 Report Posted October 8, 2014 What is important is that the story is preserverd with the blade. You could make a document telling the story and keep that with the tantō for posterity. It might not matter to those who only value NBTHK or NTHK papers, but there will be a lot of collectiors who will value the story and history more than the paper. Personally I do not care for papers that much because they only represent a very educated guess by the Shinsa team of experts and no definitive proof. Even though many will disagree with my standpoint, that is what I think of it. Disregarding variations which can occur naturally in a mei (for instance the smith did not feel well when signing or whatever other possibility) in my eyes is not very clever. Not even when a blade is gimei. Gimei is part of the sword. And for instance, if a blade is gimei but the shinsa team sees all the correct reasons to attribute the blade to the gimei smith's name, why at all take it off ? That also is part of its history in my opinion. KM
Guido Posted October 8, 2014 Report Posted October 8, 2014 I did make a few sword re-tempered and submitted Hozon and got them.If you know what and how they examine, you can trick them. I'm speechless. I hope you're proud of yourself.
Jean Posted October 8, 2014 Report Posted October 8, 2014 What is important is that the story is preserverd with the blade. You could make a document telling the story and keep that with the tantō for posterity. It might not matter to those? That also is part of its history in my opinion. That is a truism, K-M, everything done in the past is, by definition history, right or wrong. The removal of a false sword mei done by individual, whatever the reason, is part of its history. What has been done belongs to the past, so to History.
kusunokimasahige Posted October 8, 2014 Report Posted October 8, 2014 A truism it might be Jean, but disregarded by many if I read a lot of the things about swords and papers on here these last few years. KM
Jean Posted October 8, 2014 Report Posted October 8, 2014 And approved by many, so this has nothing to do with History but with Opinion.
kusunokimasahige Posted October 8, 2014 Report Posted October 8, 2014 I agree Jean, hence the stating of my opinion in lieu with what Kunitaro san wrote, since I do not at all agree with removal of a sword's history with as main reason: Paper=monetary value of sword. KM
Jean Posted October 8, 2014 Report Posted October 8, 2014 Adding a fake mei and removing it, this all part of the blade history, it's just a matter of time. The instant the fake mei was inscribded, it was history in the same way as the instant it was removed. One can perfectly regret either facts but it will always remain History.
kunitaro Posted October 8, 2014 Author Report Posted October 8, 2014 I'm speechless. I hope you're proud of yourself. No,,,, and I didn't do Yakiire by myself, a sword smith did. When I had a sword which was fired (Yake-mi), or the sword with no hamon on boshi. I tried to re-temper (for my learning proses), For shinsakuto, a smith can try Yakiire maybe 3 times, If the Yakiire is not good enough, the blade can be re-heated and try again, If you do more than 3 times, the material/steel get weak, Jitetsu will not be beautiful, or it become looks like saiba which is not good anymore. so, some of old blade (really depend on condition) can be re-tempered well. I tried 5 blades in the past, 2 of them succeed, one of them cracked, 2 of them couldn't make full Hamon... and I tried 2 succeed blades submit shinsa, one became "kaifu" other one became Sue-seki. not high rank,,, haha. and costed more than its value,,, I sold them to my friend for Iai with telling them re-tempered though, less than cost. Also, I did try to forge the blade, together with friend, a dutch blacksmith. and many telephone calls to master Kanefusa in Gifu for advices, After we made one small shobuzukuri wakizashi, my friend wanted to get Japanese polish, so, we made patina on Nakago, and send it to Japan for polish, tried if the blade pass the examine for register, it made it, got Torokusho, so, the blade got Japanese polish and new shirasaya. It was about 20 years ago, my friend still keep the blade, It was my learning proses as well. Those experience are nothing to proud of, but great fun and helped my studies very much.
cabowen Posted October 8, 2014 Report Posted October 8, 2014 Doing yaki-ire and forging are extremely educational and provide insights first hand that really can't be found anywhere else. I would strongly encourage those with an opportunity to do so. And it is indeed a great deal of fun.
Guido Posted October 9, 2014 Report Posted October 9, 2014 ,,, haha.Mr. Fujimoto, I'm glad you had a good chuckle. Really, not just a little bit proud ...? Not even about the fact that you got away with your dishonorable activities?
Jean Posted October 9, 2014 Report Posted October 9, 2014 Kunitaro san, It is very interesting, the past is the past, History is full of example of repentant sinners becoming saints. What is a bit worrying is the way Shinsa is organized and the way one can easily trick them and this with few experience but a great knowledge of how Shinsa works. So much for the paper... Buy quality and not paper.
kusunokimasahige Posted October 9, 2014 Report Posted October 9, 2014 It tends to become that way does it not, when a shinsa paper is seen to be the ticket to an extra buck (read: a lot of extra bucks) you can ask for your item on the market ? Same happens with Movie prop COA's and other collectibles with "COA". Especially German miltaria. But we also see this in the antique paintings world and in several auction houses worldwide. Pity really. KM (PS Jean.... Did I already mention I love kicking in open doors ? )
Jean Posted October 9, 2014 Report Posted October 9, 2014 PS Jean.... Did I already mention I love kicking in open doors ? No need HJ, I had already noticed BTW, you should try Haïku
kusunokimasahige Posted October 9, 2014 Report Posted October 9, 2014 Your wish is my command Jean : Ah, my Nihonto. Will it paper well, or not ? I need the money. KM
Brian Posted October 9, 2014 Report Posted October 9, 2014 No more debating papers and the fallibility of shinsa in this thread. Brian
kunitaro Posted October 14, 2014 Author Report Posted October 14, 2014 Is it dishonorable to re-temper an old blade ? or Is it not good to try submit shinsa ? I don't use the sword to cheat or harm people. I am not making fun of Kantei. or I am not against having paper. Maybe I use bad word "Trick them"… but, as we know that the Kantei is based on classic method and reference. so, if the blade doesn't show any indication of re-tempered, examiner must give result, and issue a paper. Submitting shinsa is a good charange for testing myself. If the blade passed, my knowledge is good enough. However, attribution to Kaifu or Sue-seki are the lowest attribution. Ofcause, if we used burnt late muromachi Kazuuchimono as material, and the sword will not become better than that, that is why we laugh (Haha) when we receive result. and this project for many tests, made my experience and knowledge gain but lost money by doing this. I know now that it is almost impossible to identify all of re-temped blades. As we know, Thousand of thousand of Kazuuchimono swords were burnt when the castle burnt. we know that hundreds of castles were burnt in Sengokujidai. Only master pieces were re-tempered by famous smiths. and the most of Kazuuchimono(s) were re-tempered by many smiths as well.. It was no problem, because, they were(are) weapons. and many of them has no indication of re-tempered, Those blades are possible, polished in shirasaya(or in koshirae) with papers in modern market. I am not blaming NBTHK or examiners, because, the kantei is based on classic method and people's eye, not scientific examination. The Kantei of Mumei blade is not really identifying the sword, it is categorize and raking the sword, The re-tempering project experience gave me deeper understanding about the sword making, history, and about Kantei. from those reason, I don't feel my activities dishonorable act. I feel more guilty to take Original old Shumei off than re-tempering burnt Kazuuchimono. Again, I am not against Kanteisho, It is good to have it as reference to help you for study. ( maybe there is too little info on paper) however, I think that to rely on paper too much will obstacle actual sword study… To make fake sword for higher paper for money is not by re-tempering old sword. It is used high quality shinto or gendai-to, over polished to make it looks old, that I am not interested in.
Guido Posted October 15, 2014 Report Posted October 15, 2014 There is more than a few Saiba blades with Hozon papers now.I did make a few sword re-tempered and submitted Hozon and got them. If you know what and how they examine, you can trick them. Just to get Hozon (low ranking attribution) is not very difficult. … and I tried 2 succeed blades submit shinsa, one became "kaifu" other one became Sue-seki. … Also, I did try to forge the blade, together with friend, a dutch blacksmith. and many telephone calls to master Kanefusa in Gifu for advices, After we made one small shobuzukuri wakizashi, my friend wanted to get Japanese polish, so, we made patina on Nakago, and send it to Japan for polish, tried if the blade pass the examine for register, it made it, got Torokusho, so, the blade got Japanese polish and new shirasaya. You say you re-tempered swords with the intent to deceive the NBTHK. You say you helped a Dutch blacksmith forge and manipulate a sword to deceive the toroku-shinsa (which, btw, is a criminal offense under the Japanese sword and firearms law). I find your claims hard to believe, especially if it was a shinsa on Mr. Tanobe’s watch. But true or not, it doesn’t really matter if you really did all that, or just fabricated the entire story. Furthermore, this seems to be just your latest attempt at discrediting the NBTHK, something you put considerable effort into, as is evident from quite a few of your posts. I don’t know the moral standards you grew up with, but where I’m from, you would be considered dishonest, a mud-slinger, and generally without honor. I hope this answers your question.
kunitaro Posted October 16, 2014 Author Report Posted October 16, 2014 Thank you for your answer, Guido san, and Sorry that I made you upset ? However, I think that examiner should examine objects without any prior information. so, we don't need to tell examiner what it is before examination. There is no malice, pure education purpose. I am here on NMB to share my experience and information. My moral is based on "Bushido", follow the truth and justice, and act for other's benefit, not my own profit. Although I was born and grown up in an old merchant family who were under Asano Daimyo family of Hiroshima han since early Edo period. My mother told me "If you handle swords, you must live very straight, unless the sword will cut you !". I understand, and I am trying to live starigt as much as I can. My study is for benefit Japanese sword students and preserve Japanese sword with Samurai spirits, Telling truth is not much benefit for dealers or criminals. I can challenge my teachers or masters, but, I don't cheat or deceive collectors or students. Regarding to Toroku-shinsa, It doesn't say that it should be Antique Japanese made. or it is not necessary to be made from Tamahagane. The angle of Kissakki, Tsukurikomi, and Nakago with Mekugi-ana should be fit with tradition. and hand forged steel with Hamon with Nie, (if the examiner find that it is an old Japanese sword without Hamon) are the regulation. If the blade is imported from out side of Japan, and if it fits all regulations, they will issue Torokusho, so, Craftsmen can handle them legally. You can not make a sword in Japan without license, but, forging knives or sword in Europe or US, is not against law. and It is regal to send the sword to Japan with applying Torokushinsa, If you send the sword without shinsa, and have them without Torokusho in Japan is criminal offense. and Craftsmen are not allowed to handle them. Our project (1995) was advised by 25th Kanefusa, I was calling him every week for almost one year, and polished by Kotoken Kajiwara. and Kotoken Kajiwara told examine officer that amateur made sword is coming into JP custom, so, examine officer knew it is not an antique sword, but, he examined, and passed. ( i think that he gave us chance,,, ) so, it has done entirely legal. Some Japanese sword smith forged sword in US or in Europe, and it can go to Japan, (sometime, it is question, because, then modern blades exist more than their limit of 24 swords/year,,, however, the Torokushinsa has no reason to reject issuing Torokusho. The blade is made from modern construction iron and file without Oroshigane. so, It is almost Damascus with Hamon, so, It passed Torokushinsa but not Hozon quality, the polish is very good, so, it looks like Nihonto, but, Hada is not really same, it is just showing different material not really activities, and nie is too big and too lough, which is too hard as Nihonto. and many Kizu(s)….. so, we made Horimono (of skull)… By doing this, me and my friend learnt a lot, forging temperature, welding technique without borax etc., we experienced different from western smithing, Japanese work with lower temperature. Master Kanefusa was keep telling us, must forge, fold and welding without spark without borax which is very difficult. also, we learnt what is easy what is difficult, what is not possible…made us completely humble in the end. I strongly believe that the knowledge must come from experience. I hope it helps for studying and deeper understanding Japanese sword.
cabowen Posted October 16, 2014 Report Posted October 16, 2014 I made a tanto in the US once with help from a Japanese smith, signed with my name in kanji. I told the shinsa'in that I had made it when he couldn't find the smith in his meikan :lol: ....it was registered in Tokyo without any issue. As I recall, all the Ju To Ho says regarding what can be registered is that it has to be an art work or have "value".
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