Hosono masamori gimei?

[Nikolas]

 

Hi all,

here is a kozuka which looks like hosono masamori and its quite convincing.. the frontside...

 

BUT then this crappy inscription on the reverse.. masamori + kao either he was drunk or gimei..

so either a hamamono or real hosono with false mei... wonder what you guys think

 

Aaaa its nice to have some free time for the hobby

 

[Soshin]

Hi Nikolas ,

 

I don't think the term hamamono should be applied. It very likely has a gimei (false signature) but the craftsmanship is there which makes it a good copy versus the much more common bad copy.

[John A Stuart]

This artist signed often his full name Hosono Sozaemon Masamori 細野惣左衙門政守 His signature varies as does the kao. I am not competent enough to decide, but, the workmanship, to me, is just his style of carving and type of inlay. John

[Ford Hallam]

As John wrote this artist's mei does vary.

 

The workmanship is very distinctive and absolutely spot on, in my opinion. The mei as inscribed on this piece is also pretty much the same as at least one I have in my reference books.

 

Having said that there is a dated piece by him from 1691 (he's recorded as being born in 1656) but, as Joe Earl (in Lethal Elegance) points out this date appears too too early for the majority of pieces baring this mei. And while the style of the workmanship is always very much alike the mei do vary as do the kao. The suggesting being that there were 2 or maybe ever 3 generations working in this style.

 

David will have to explain for himself why he maintains it's gimei, frankly I think he's very wrong in his estimation.

 

David, have you compered any verified mei with this example? and how many bad copies of his work are there floating around that you've seem to find far more common?

[Nikolas]

Thank you all for the comments and explanations!

 

With further research, I am with John and Ford on this one.

as already stated the craft was quite convincing for me, but the mei threw me off..i was also only aware of the long mei

but you are right.. there are varyations with niji mei and kao and/or in that sloppy style :D

 

e.g. meiji taikei

 

 

many thanks!!

 

 

 

but if there are hint to place in the gimei directions.. feel free

[Soshin]

Hi Ford and John,

 

Don't really have the time to study this been studying Ko-Kinko tosogu lately. I also need to help Grev with his museum tsuba cataloging and finish a paper on the Hirata school all in my free time. Agreed with some of the owners comments and I basically assume everything is a gimei until I am given evidence or find though my own research evidence to conclude otherwise. Finding some other works with the same or similar signature may support your idea that there was more then one generation. At this point there is not enough evidence to support the claim of multiple generations.

[Kevin Adams]

Don't really have the time to study this been studying Ko-Kinko tosogu lately. I also need to help Grev with his museum tsuba cataloging and finish a paper on the Hirata school all in my free time.

Looking forward to reading some of that, I'm sure the nihonto community appreciates your efforts. But...

 

I basically assume everything is a gimei until I am given evidence or find though my own research evidence to conclude otherwise.

Why? This suggests that you have no evidence to formulate an opinion (perfectly acceptable), and yet...

 

At this point there is not enough evidence to support the claim of multiple generations.

How can you make this claim WITHOUT considering any evidence? Suggesting a lack of evidence would necessitate trying to find some in the first place.

 

I'm very confused about what your opinion is on this piece. You say it's gimei, and yet give no reason for the assertion except that you've made a blanket assumption based on no consideration of evidence. What we need in these discussions are photos, direct references from books and papers, comparisons with extant works and open, mindful discussion between people that have made the effort to find the references in question.

 

A definition of deductive and inductive reasoning, from Wikipedia:

Deductive reasoning concerns what follows necessarily from given premises (if a, then b). However, inductive reasoning—the process of deriving a reliable generalization from observations—has sometimes been included in the study of logic. Similarly, it is important to distinguish deductive validity and inductive validity (called "cogency"). An inference is deductively valid if and only if there is no possible situation in which all the premises are true but the conclusion false. An inductive argument can be neither valid nor invalid; its premises give only some degree of probability, but not certainty, to its conclusion.

Regarding the piece itself, I must confess that while I'm a great admirer of this artist's work, I know little about the authenticity of the mei. The work itself looks legit based on some published works I've looked at, but the ground surrounding the mei looks very smooth and worn. Is this the result of wear, or somebody trying to obscure the mei?

[Soshin]

How can you make this claim WITHOUT considering any evidence? Suggesting a lack of evidence would necessitate trying to find some in the first place.

 

Hi Kevin,

 

What evidence? I cannot consider something that isn't there. One kozuka is hardly enough to establish anything in regards two whole later generations. I am not going to reply until I see more evidence of works with similar mei and consistent workmanship and style.

[Ford Hallam]

I remember reading in B W Robinson's charming little book that one of the easiest ways to appear to be "one who knows" is to condemn everything as a fake.

 

David, your own approach to the subject, such as it is, is your own business but to publicly offer an opinion like this based on a self confessed lack of any relevant knowledge seems presumptions not to say arrogant. That you then claim to regard everything as fake until proved otherwise in respect to something you are ignorant of is even more bizarre. Wouldn't it save everyone time if you didn't comment on things you "really don't have time to study" ?

 

Or if you really need to be heard on every thread then maybe warn the OP that while you actually don't know anything about the specific piece in question your stand point is to regard everything as fake until proved otherwise. That way people can at least evaluate the usefulness of your contributions for themselves.

[Jean]

So you can have an idea, the kozuka was from R. Haynes collection (all from my former collection)

[Soshin]

Hi Jean,

 

Very nice examples. Thanks I learned something.

 

Hi Kevin and Ford,

 

I am dropping this topic time need to get back to work... Goodbye.

[Markus]

The mei in question put next to the Masamori entry in my Signatures of Japanese Sword Fittings Artists.

As John pointed out, the mei of Hosono Masamori varies significantly. Workmanship looks fine IMHO.

 

[Kevin Adams]

Thank you Jean and Markus. :D

[Soshin]

Hi Markus S.,

 

Thank you for even more good information. I PM you about your book I think it would be a good reference to buy. :D

[Brian]

It is definitely a must have.

And given the work examples, ignoring the mei, one can only deduce that the work matches and should be shoshin.

Even if not, it is a charming piece.

Jean, are you saying you owned all of those?

And parted with them?

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Yes David, all nice examples but according to your 'logic' all gimei until you've proved otherwise

[Jean]

Yes, Brian, to both questions, that's life, needed money at one time and made a good profit. Narrow sword market in France, kodogu is what you can buy and resell with good profit. Blades, you loose your shirt.

 

Btw, the kozuka was papered, Ford

[Soshin]

Yes David, all nice examples but according to your 'logic' all gimei until you've proved otherwise

 

Hi Ford,

 

You don't understand my logic and I see little point in communicating it. I wanted evidence that the mei on the kozuka was of a consistent pattern and I found it. The case is closed in my book. You calling me arrogant is more then a bit hypocritical.

[Brian]

Ok, enough. Further off topic posts will be deleted. Points made and noted.

 

Brian

[Nikolas]

Thank you all for your help!!

Nice pictures and great references :D

 

Greetings!

[Ford Hallam]

Sorry Brian but I need to clarify a very important point here before I am yet again misrepresented.

 

David, I did not call you arrogant so please don't misunderstand.

 

What I wrote was;

to publicly offer an opinion like this based on a self confessed lack of any relevant knowledge seems presumptions not to say arrogant.

 

To clarify, this is to say the act I described may be regarded as arrogant. That is all. Of your character I know nothing nor would I make any personal judgements of you personally. To do so would simply be rude and judgmental.

[Brian]

Ok...so "You are not an idiot, but everything you do and say is idiotic" ???

Is that the logic then?

Good thing you aren't rude and judgmental Ford. But you should be a little bit careful, as sometimes the way you convey your thoughts could be regarded as a bit rude and judgmental.

 

* Sigh *

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

I'm sorry to see you struggling with this Brian but I nowhere implied that everything David says or does is idiotic. As I said I don't know him well enough to make that judgement, I was merely referring to a specific statement, that was all.

 

That you wish to take that and turn it into a sweeping generalisation is unfair and, as I feared, yet again misrepresents what I said.

 

The problem with this forum is that when people post unsubstantiated opinions posing as authoritative fact they all to frequently get snotty and dismissive when asked to validate their input. That's the real arrogance at work here.

[Brian]

I don't really think you are rude and arrogant Ford. Just making the same point that you were....that sometimes a statement comes across as an insult when it shouldn't be.

You should have made your point to David and left it at that. No need to go in for the kill.

Frankly, I took it like most took it...the old stamement of "buy a sword as if the signature is gimei, then if it turns out to be shoshin, you scored. But you won't lose that way" I know what he meant.

Calls of gimei are all to easy to make. I guess because we are taught by the powers that be that just about everything is gimei. But we all know that gimei calls are an opinion, and subject to verification.

We have covered this ground before. Someone makes a statement that is wrong, then make your point and leave it at that.

Forums in general are all to happy to pick people apart line by line. It is easy to do that. We are typing here, not speaking. So many points are summarized expecting people to use common sense.

Post after post breaking down opinions are just tiresome, and not educational. This is not a court.

 

Brian

[Soshin]

Hi Ford,

 

I was going to PM you my apology as it is a bit off topic and has nothing to do with kozuka. Sorry for misunderstanding your comments as condescending and argonaute. I was simply agreeing with the owner of the kozkuka that it was gimei. Now with the additional information provided by Jean and Markus I know it is shoshin and not gimei. I often take the same approach in my research of my own tosogu in my collection until I find evidence to conclude otherwise that the signature is not fake but authentic.

[Jean]

Ok guys, a good kiss and a fresh start. :D

[Ford Hallam]

Thank you gentlemen, for your reasonable and generous comments. I'd also like to apologise if my tone was unintentionally rude.

 

Jean, I'm not snogging any of these chaps...I can guess where they've been.

[docliss]

In order to restore the continuity of this thread, here are two more pieces, purportedly by Hosono Masamori.

 

The tsuba, ex the Naunton collection, is of a chocolate-brown shibuichi and measures 6.6 - 5.8 cm. It is inscribed on the omote surface, HOSONO SOZAEMON MASAMORI with kao, using the seven-stroke kanji for 'Masa', and depicts a rice growing scene in the kebori-zōgan typical of this artist's work.

 

The kodzuka, ex the Ransom and Hitchen collections, is also of chocolate-brown shibuichi, and is inscribed HOSONO SOZAEMON HORU KORE. It depicts a water scene in which two straw-hatted figures tow a boat with five seated passengers. This kebori-zōgan work is rather less detailed than is usual for this artist.

 

Haynes, on pp.900-901 of his Index ..., suggests that this artist 'must have had many students and assistants to produce the quantity of material still extant', all of whom signed with the master's (masters') name. This, together with the wide variation in quality and in mei, and the use of both five- and seven-stroke 'Masa' kanji, makes a second artist of this name at least a possibility.

 

John L.

[Tcat]

Nice photos John. Here are my two examples. Critiques, comments and flames welcome. Apologies in advance for camera phone pics. Jean, your past and present collection never ceases to amaze

[steve0]

thanks for posting guys, i know nothing of this artist, nor if its soshin or gimei but i do know my eyes like what they see