Ubu and Mumei

[cabowen]

... I use Kenji Mishina....

 

 

Good choice. He will take good care of you....

[Toryu2020]

Interesting discussion -

I for one look forward to seeing the sword in Chicago. On the subject of muneyaki, I always find myself referring to Tsuneishi's Nihonto no Kenkyu to Kantei. There are priceless gems on every page. In the section on the Rai school we find;

 

"Within the works of the Rai school we find many works with what looks like muneyaki, something not seen in the earlier Yamashiro schools, the Sanjo and Awataguchi. This muneyaki is not that at all but is in fact an expression of yubashiri. In other words in the instance we see this yubashiri it is because the "Rai yaki" is just so strong"

 

So here is one writer at least that doesnt see it as a negative...

 

-t

[cabowen]

This muneyaki is not that at all but is in fact an expression of yubashiri. In other words in the instance we see this yubashiri it is because the "Rai yaki" is just so strong"

 

So here is one writer at least that doesnt see it as a negative...

 

-t

 

Well, if he is claiming that it is not muneyaki, then he isn't saying anything explicitly about muneyaki, positively or negatively, so I am unsure how you can say that he doesn't see muneyaki as a negative.

 

Most consider any expression of hardening on the mune to be muneyaki- after all, that is what the term literally means. So perhaps this author is trying to distance himself from the negative connotation muneyaki has in many cases by saying that for some reason, what we see in Rai blades is not muneyaki, but somehow something different. Yubashiri is an artifact of the hardening process and is a martensitic/perlitic/etc. structure, so it is indeed technically a form of muneyaki, semantics aside.

 

Finally, what exactly does "Rai yaki is just so strong" mean?

 

I think it is clear from the links I posted that muneyaki, when unintentional, is looked down upon most of the time as the work of second class smiths. As I have said, some think the muneyaki on Rai blades is intentionally left (though most upper level smiths remove it per Nakahara) others think it was done purposely (as a byproduct of their hardening program) and left possibly because they thought it improved the performance of the blade. Some think they didn't give it much thought either way...Regardless, when it comes to Rai blades (and others as well), it isn't looked down upon the way it is in other blades. Ambiguous? Perhaps. Such is the world of Japanese swords, and Japan in general, for that matter.

[Surfson]

I've never visited muneyaki before, but it is an interesting topic! As to the tempering on the mune of my blade, the only thing that I can say is that it is nearly identical on both sides and that it may or may not connect to the kaeri of the boshi (this is where the polisher will come in). Although there seems not to be unanimity on it, it appears that a longer kaeri may be indicative of a younger blade. Having said that, I did find some examples of older ones with this boshi pattern. Looking forward to getting opinions from experts in Chicago and in Japan. Cheers, Bob

[Surfson]

Sorry, the fact that the muneyaki is identical on both sides makes it less likely that it is unintentional, at least to my way of thinking.

[JohnTz]

As a new member and someone just starting out I wanted to say thank you to the people that contributed to the discussion on this blade. Simply fantastic and invaluable information for a new member. Thank again.

 

I am in Chicago. Can someone please point me to the link for the upcoming show that is being discussed? Is it the show in April of next year in Schaumburg?

[Toryu2020]

http://www.chicagoswordshow.com/shinsa-information/

 

You'll find all the info on the Chicago Show and Shinsa via the link above, hope to see you all there.

 

Chris et al -

Since this is from the general section on Rai workmanship and not an article about the unfortunate appearance of muneyaki in Japanese swords - I think he is just stating the facts as he sees them and not aiming away from any one theory or other.

 

Also since he is talking in comparison to the earlier Sanjo and Awataguchi schools, I think he is saying their "tempering" is just so strong in comparison to those schools.

 

-t

[cabowen]

Also since he is talking in comparison to the earlier Sanjo and Awataguchi schools, I think he is saying their "tempering" is just so strong in comparison to those schools.

 

-t

 

 

But what does "strong" mean in terms of hardening? Or in comparison to those early schools?

 

I fail to grasp how hardening can be characterized as "strong"....It's like saying the hardening is "powerful"...in the context of this discussion, it makes little sense to me...Perhaps something lost in translation???

[Jean]

Chris wrote:

But what does "strong" mean in terms of hardening? Or in comparison to those early schools?

 

That's right, Chris.

 

That's the reason why we'll never be Einstein, Chris :D if we have not the same benchmark, relativity will always be subjective.

 

This kind of subjectivity will never be quantified, it is based on experience and few people have the same experience.

 

That is the reason why when someone gets a Kanteisho "Den xxxxx", I encourage him to ask why it is Den. We have few Western people able to kantei a blade as "Den xxx"

[cabowen]

Jean-

 

I agree that the subjective quantifiers make it difficult to grasp, but in this case, in addition to the subjective issues, is the issue of appropriate descriptors. From a metallurgical standpoint, characterizing Rai yaki as "strong" contains no meaning....it is not a valid descriptor for any physical characteristic of hardening . Like saying "ice cream is creative".....

[John A Stuart]

I can't read the mans mind, but, if someone was to quote that line to me and given it is a terse translation, I would take it to mean that the habuchi was well defined and delineated, not diffuse and cloudy (wispy). I also would expect a tight nie-guchi, but, that may be presupposition on my part. John

[cabowen]

What gives me pause is the fact that he is attributing the yubashiri muneyaki to Rai's "strong yaki". Which to me, seems that he is talking about a characteristic of the process itself, not the appearance... a cause and effect. I understand the effect, I just don't follow his explanation of the cause....

 

Like I said, perhaps something lost in translation....

[Darcy]

I think it is clear from the links I posted that muneyaki, when unintentional, is looked down upon most of the time as the work of second class smiths.

 

Rai (Kuniyuki, Kunitoshi, Kunimitsu)

Chogi.

Korekazu.

Izumi no Kami Kunisada.

Hasebe (Kuninobu, Kunishige).

Etchu Norishige.

Nagasone Okimasa.

Hankei.

Nobukuni.

Kiyomitsu.

Soshu Masamune (Tokubetsu Juyo, Meibutsu Musashi Masamune, etc.)

Muramasa.

Dewa Daijo Kunimichi.

Kiyomaro.

Kanesada.

Soshu Hiromitsu.

Yamato Norinaga.

Aoe Tsuguyoshi.

 

Juyo, Tokuju, Jubi levels.

 

Just wanted to quickly slap together a rogues gallery of some of the second class smiths documented in the Token Bijutsu who appear to be regrettably generating muneyaki on these busted blades.

 

For kicks I datamined (for others, "read") in the Nihonto Koza as well that those those careless slobs in the Hosho school are showing muneyaki frequently (I shake my fist at them, what a let down). I've noted it in the zufu under a Tokubetsu Juyo Go Yoshihiro as well. Probably nobody of note.

 

Checking Albert Yamanaka yields the Meibutsu Wakasa Masamune as another regrettable blade marred by muneyaki. His writing (datamaking? dataplanting?) sadly indicates that it's accompanied by the Meibutsu Suruga Masamune in the scrap heap of poorly made blades. Oh, the humanity.

 

There is of course all of this that stands as a counterpoint, should one actually wish to look at examples. Data. It's good for you and tasty too.

[Surfson]

OK guys, I'm really loving the substance of your debate, but don't want to be responsible for triggering a dust up. You both add so much, not only to this thread but to the NMB, and are two of the true "cognosensei" (like that word - I just made it up?!) of the board.

[cabowen]

 

There is of course all of this that stands as a counterpoint, should one actually wish to look at examples. Data. It's good for you and tasty too.

 

No doubt you will find Juyo and Tokuju Yamato blades with kitae-ware as well....Data is good. As in a "good" starting point, not the end....without the knowledge and experience to know how to interpret it, it is nothing but empty calories...

 

Quite a data dump! You think maybe Nakahara sensei isn't aware of those smiths? :lol:

 

Nakahara sensei’s statement, repeated below, is just a recounting of the traditionally held opinion...No doubt he would also agree that there are some high quality blades with muneyaki....It would seem he is able to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. Fitzgerald calls that the test of a first rate mind. I would call it typical Japanese ambiguity which we see quite often in all fields of Japanese study. Ambiguity tolerance is a prerequisite for moving along the learning curve.

 

　"端的にいえば、どんな名工が刃文を焼いても土落ちによって日本刀に棟焼は大なり小なり入るのである。

そうであるから、焼入した後で修正(注文通りの寸法の反に調整)する際に、棟焼を消し去ってしまう ケースが多いのである。従って一流名工の作にはこの棟焼は殆どないに等しく、地方や二流刀工には、 よく棟焼があるという事につながっていくとされている。"

[John A Stuart]

So, he is saying that there is little muneyaki found in first rate smiths, but, more common in second rate smiths, and that most is a result of clay loss at the 'mune' and is usually erased by the smith. John

[cabowen]

Sorry, I dropped the translation when I pasted the quote which was posted originally on page 4 of this thread...Here it is:

 

“If we speak frankly, every famous smith when performing yaki-ire will have the clay come off here and there and thus there will be muneyaki more or less on occasion. After yaki-ire, the smith touches up the blade (correcting the sori to fit the parameters of the order, etc.) and the muneyaki will be gotten rid of in many cases (as a part of this “rework” -Translator). Because of this, we rarely see muneyaki in the work of first class smiths, and likewise, it is very common in the work of country smiths and second rate craftsman.”

[nagamaki - Franco]

The following is an image of a Nambokucho period Yamashiro blade I used to own with full length muneyaki, obviously and without doubt intentional as it is the Yubashiri form rather than the Tobiyaki form. This sword despite being o-suriage mumei and displaying full length muneyaki received Tokubetsu Hozon origami from the NBTHK and has a Tanobe sensei sayagaki in which he gave this sword a named attribution to the founder of the school named in the origami. It should be noted that the muneyaki is a kantei point cited in the literature for this sword smith. Although these images are not the best, one can still see that the muneyaki does not "spill" over the edge of the mune, but rather borders it quite carefully, an important point. Muneyaki that does fall significantly over the edge should draw immediate suspicion and careful scrutiny. Additionally, there is a Kentaro Yoshikawa sensei article written in 'Art and the Sword' which he explains why swords from the region in which this sword was manufactured are forged differently and have muneyaki. It does not take Einstein genius to then connect the dots to its use. An informative article worth reading. Also on that note, as this sword had a slight bend in it, when straightened, the polisher said of all the swords he had straightened over the years "this was the toughest ass sword" he's ever come across in his words. The point to this additional post being there is muneyaki, and then there is muneyaki.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having used the search feature of this forum it seems that we have been on this merry-go-round ride before > http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/search.php?keywords=muneyaki&terms=all&author=nagamaki&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

[Kronos]

This may be a stupid question but I was wondering what benefit muneyaki would have, if any. knowing the pragmatic approach of smiths then intentional muneyaki would have some benefit when it was deliberate and speculating I can think of a couple of possible reasons to include it to improve the overall structure of a sword.

[Toryu2020]

Sorry guys, not online all the time -

Most certainly something lost in translation, since I am the translator. Will post the original Japanese text tomorrow.

-t

[Brian]

Thanks Franco, a good example, and a nice sword. Obviously carefully applied and intended in this case.

The first thing we learn in this hobby is that there are no hard and fast rules, only generalities and guidelines.

 

Brian

[cabowen]

Thanks Franco, a good example, and a nice sword. Obviously carefully applied and intended in this case.

The first thing we learn in this hobby is that there are no hard and fast rules, only generalities and guidelines.

 

Brian

 

I don't think anyone has said that ALL muneyaki is unintentional or that ALL muneyaki is "bad"- I know I haven't.

 

I quite agree Brian that there are no hard and fast rules and that there is much that is ambiguous. I have pointed this out as well.

[Toryu2020]

来物には　三乗派や粟田口一派にはみられない棟焼状態のあるさくが多いですが　これは実は棟焼でわなく　湯足りの強いものです

つまり来物は湯走りの現れる程前記の系統より焼が強い訳です

 

 

First off let me say that I find the questions raised by the discussion of great interest, just the kind of thing to get one digging down in the books for more info. If I had read this note from Tsuneishi previously I forgot it. His books seem to provide the best info for kantei and this was a bit surprising. Definitely have to see what other authors are saying about the presence of muneyaki and if there are opinions expressed about its value...

-t

[cabowen]

I think what he is saying is that in Rai work the quenching is done at a high(er) temperature and this is the reason they show yubashiri in the mune while the two other groups do not.

 

Yubashiri is a structure formed by quenching and when it appears on the mune, it is muneyaki. He seems to be trying to make a distinction between the type of muneyaki that appears in the mune of Rai blades (yubashiri which is nie based) and the muneyaki that appears in other blades (usually nioi based).

[John A Stuart]

Those being the Sanjou ha and Awataguchi school, yes? 三乗派や粟田口 John

[cabowen]

Those being the Sanjou ha and Awataguchi school, yes? 三乗派や粟田口 John

 

Yes, he says that "blades of the Sanjo and Awataguchi groups in which muneyaki is not seen are plentiful".

 

His syntax is a bit twisted....

[Markus]

Yes, he says that "blades of the Sanjo and Awataguchi groups in which muneyaki is not seen are plentiful".

 

You already pointed out earlier what Tsuneishi means, namely trying o make a distinction between yubashiri (nie) based and

nioi-based muneyaki, but before we continue, let me provide a translation of the quote Tom posted. Just for the sake of

completeness and with a minor correction of the translation given by you to John. Not meant as nitpicking.

 

来物には　三乗派や粟田口一派にはみられない棟焼状態のあるさくが多いですが　これは実は棟焼でわなく　湯足りの強いものです

つまり来物は湯走りの現れる程前記の系統より焼が強い訳です

 

"As for Rai-mono, there are many blades with muneyaki-like formations which are not seen on works of the Sanjo or Awataguchi school.

However, these are not muneyaki but strong yubashiri, and this appearance of yubashiri on Rai-mono belongs to the feature I was

referring to earlier as "strong/intense hardening."

[cabowen]

I was hoping you would comment Markus- thanks...

 

I'm wondering if in this case:

 

"前記の系統より焼が強い訳です."

 

焼　yaki, which can mean both heating and tempering, might be translated in this case as heating, as in:

 

"the heating is stronger than that of the aforementioned groups"...

 

Simply because "strong/intense hardening" has no real meaning in a metallurgical sense.

 

Also, do you translate both 湯足り and 湯走り as "yubashiri"?

 

Again, thanks.

[Markus]

 

焼　yaki, which can mean both heating and tempering, might be translated in this case as heating, as in:

 

"the heating is stronger than that of the aforementioned groups"...

 

Simply because "strong/intense hardening" has no real meaning in a metallurgical sense.

 

Also, do you translate both 湯足り and 湯走り as "yubashiri"?

 

 

 

I think that "yaki" is meant here as "hardening" because in the context of "tempering", the term

is usually found with some suffix. Regarding, 湯足り and 湯走り, the former is IMHO just a typo.

Now we have to dig into Tsuneishi's previous chapters to find out what he means with "strong".

I am with you, "strong" has no meaning when it comes to describe metallurgical conditions,

that's why I added "intense". Not that this makes more sense but to add another periphrasis.

 

Reading between the lines of just this short paragraph, I tend to think that with "strong" a way

of hardening is meant which is prone to create more nie, and this is AFAIK keeping the blade

slightly longer at a higher temperature (to allow nie crystals to grow) before quenching.

 

Taking this approach further, it seems to me that holding the blade longer at a higher temperature

requires pulling it more often through the hearth and maybe this lead to a loss of more clay along

the mune?

[cabowen]

 

 

I am with you, "strong" has no meaning when it comes to describe metallurgical conditions,

that's why I added "intense". Not that this makes more sense but to add another periphrasis.

 

Reading between the lines of just this short paragraph, I tend to think that with "strong" a way

of hardening is meant which is prone to create more nie, and this is AFAIK keeping the blade

slightly longer at a higher temperature (to allow nie crystals to grow) before quenching.

 

Taking this approach further, it seems to me that holding the blade longer at a higher temperature

requires pulling it more often through the hearth and maybe this lead to a loss of more clay along

the mune?

 

One related issue I see is the translation of "yaki" as "tempering" in many instances when the correct word is "hardening". Often people mistakenly call yaki-ire "tempering", the yaki-ba a "temper line", etc. I have always heard tempering referred to as "yaki-modoshi"　which literally means "re-heat/re-harden", and that is exactly what is done when the blade is in fact tempered.

 

I too think that the meaning here is that Rai blades are heated to a higher temperature before quenching which produces the nie along the mune; if you translate "yaki" as used above as "heating", then: "the heat is stronger" starts to make sense; "the hardening is stronger/more intense" as said, makes no sense...

 

Pulling the sword back and forth is done to equalize the temperature. Some smiths move it around more than others; not sure if this would be relevant...

 

Thanks again...