New acquisition - temple sword?

[Surfson]

Hi All. Just bought a small collection from the daughter of the GI that brought them back. Two of the blades are of particular interest. I will post separately on the other. This one appears to be some sort of temple sword. It is very long - over 88cm/34.5". It appears to have never been polished, as the entire blade is "ububa", and I can't tell if it has a tempered edge or not. The mei is giving me some difficulty. It is signed Naoyoshi Kitau kore, and the first part of the mei seems to have a character similar to (ni) oite, but slightly different. The next three kanji might be a place, but I haven't been able to make it out. The date is Genji one I believe, or 1864. The mounts are also very interesting. The saya appears to be completely wrapped in baileen, or possibly some sort of wicker like material. The tsuba is a puffy leather over wood. To me, it seems to be a proper sword that has never been polished, but I am curious as to whether it is made in the traditional way. Any feedback on the location and or the sword would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Bob

[cabowen]

Normally the mei is not cut until after the edge is hardened but it wouldn't surprise me if it was made for some type of offering, kabuki, or other such use, that it might not be hardened. I would bet it is hardened but I know of one other large blade (2"+ wide, wakizashi) signed by a Sukesada that was never hardened and probably made for display or some other non-use...

 

Very interesting sword though...There are two shinshinto Naoyoshi in the Meikan. One from Dewa, one from Mikawa.

[k morita]

Great find!!

 

Oh,rare sword made in Ezo (now day Hokkaido prefecture) ,late Edo period.(This sword is not Ainu sword.)

 

mei is Naoyoshi.

 

Maybe Naotane school.

[cabowen]

The MIkawa smith moved to Hokkaido late in life. He was from the Naotane group.

[Surfson]

Thanks to both Chris and Morita senseis. Morita Sensei, do you think that this sword is worthy of restoration? I can't tell if it has been tempered, but to my eye it looks very well forged and finished. Also, can you please translate the upper kanji? The fourth one looks to me like Chi from Chika and the first one looks like a strange version of ni oite. The third one looks like hina or hira or ebisu (in Koop and Inada). Unfortunately, I can't put the first four kanji together. Is it a place in Ezo? Cheers, Bob

[Surfson]

Here are two more photos. One shows the sori and the other is a closeup of the steel. As you can see, the sword has never been polished. Interestingly, the edge is dull for the entire length. It is truly amazing the exacting dimensions though, which were presumably all gotten from hammering and filing. Cheers, Bob

[cabowen]

With the mei being cut and the sori complete, it is almost surely hardened. You would need to have a window done to know for sure....or etch it with vinegar, which I would not advise....

[Surfson]

That's good to hear, thanks Chris. My wonder or concern is whether it is actually more important in the unrestored state, since I have never seen another Edo period blade that was finished by the kaji and never polished. I guess it's as ubu as a sword can get. Are you as baffled by the beginning of the mei as I am? Cheers, bob

[k morita]

The MIkawa smith moved to Hokkaido late in life. He was from the Naotane group.

 

Chris,

Exactly! you are right.

 

Robert,

Ezochi means Hokkaido prefecture.

[Gabriel L]

Super interesting sword. One does wonder whether it should be polished. I would lean towards "yes," if only because it does nobody any good in its current state (it's not serving as a temple sword anymore, if that's what it was). But more research would be necessary to make that kind of decision. Good luck finding out more, —G.

[cabowen]

Personally, since I primarily collect swords for their artistic merits, which are only visible in a polished blade, I would find little of interest in a blade that has not been polished. While indeed interesting from a historical perspective, without any additional background, provenance, etc., to me it is just an unpolished blade....just my opinion.

 

Of course, there may be a variety of reasons why it wasn't....could be it was found to have a hagire, as one possibility. No doubt there are many possibilities and we could conjecture and spin rationale for pages, but ultimately, it is something probably never known for certain.

 

I would have it polished, but again, that is just me....I'm curious to see what the other interesting item is.......

[Surfson]

I tend to agree with you Gabriel and Chris, but if it hasn't been tempered, then it would be an (expensive) exercise in futility. I wonder if it is possible to measure the hardness of the blade in some non destructive way - ok, engineers out there on the NMB, is there a simple device that can measure hardness without altering the surface, and where would I find somebody that has one? Chris, as to the hagire point, right now the blade edge is very dull and thick, so I would be surprised if there were any hagire. Cheers, Bob

[Surfson]

Morita Sensei, let me take this opportunity to say that you are amazing!!! We are so lucky to have you on the NMB. Cheers, bob

[cabowen]

The edge being dull and thick is what you would expect in a blade that has yet to be polished...It may have had only the first stone or two, then they stopped....Just conjecture, like I said.

 

Just have a window done on it. Then you will know if it is hard or not. Shouldn't cost much at all....

 

Morita san is indeed a treasure...

[Baka Gaijin]

Morning all.,

 

The edge is dull and the tsuba is padded leather.

 

(Is the term for a completely dull edge Habiki?)

 

Might this have been used for Gekken (Severe Sword - I think) training?

 

Bearing in mind the period and the warriors who also went North.

 

Hokkaido, a generation later being akin to the Wild West, the birthplace of the early manifestation of both the fledgling Aiki Jutsu (later Do) under Uyeshiba Morihei and the allegedly pre existing Daito Ryu forms of Takeda Sokaku.

 

Just a thought.

 

Malcolm

[ROKUJURO]

Robert,

 

it is very easy to test the hardness of the edge, and you can do it yourself without great damage - nevertheless a scratch may be the result. It is done in every blacksmith's shop as a normal test after quenching a blade.

 

You take a fine new (or nearly new) metal file and try to file the edge in an angle as if you wanted to sharpen the blade. Don't use too much presssure, you will feel immediately if the file ''bites'' (which would mean a non-hardened edge) or if it ''slides'' on the HA without removing metal. It is a feeling as if you filed glass.

 

Carefully done, this action remains almost without any visual effect or damage on the blade if hardened, and in the other case it will leave a few tiny scratches. Do this in hand, not in a vise, and do it close to the HAMACHI!

 

As the edge is still dull, this test will not harm your blade. The technical background is that the hardness of a quality file is about 65 to 67 HRc (Rockwell hardness), while a correctly hardened Japanese blade has about 60 HRc. A non-hardened cutting edge as it comes from the anvil may have about 40 HRc. A finished (hard) blade can only be filed with a diamond file or ground and polished with stones, be that artificial or natural. Before quenching, a Japanese sword blade is treated in a way to make the steel soft so it can be formed with a SEN (see attached photo).

 

My guess from what is visible of the blade, the traces on the surface, and its shape (SORI) is that is is not hardened, but the file test will definitely show.

 

Best of luck!

 

 

So, gentlemen, this is the ultimate test for your JUYO blades! Are they REALLY hard?

[Surfson]

Interesting post Malcolm, and I had to google all of the terms that you introduced. It's hard for me to imagine this sword used in the gekken, since it is fairly heavy and quite long (over 34 inches). As to the history of marshall arts, I never heard about the lineages or the connection to Hokkaido. Cheers, Bob

[Surfson]

Jean, this sounds like it will work. Is there a certain type of file that I would need to get, other than avoiding a diamond file? Brian Tschernaga once showed me something similar. With a sharpened blade, if he wants to test whether the edge is still tempered or not (e.g. to test whether the hamon runs off an old blade at the boshi when it may have been dressed up by a polisher), he tried to slice some metal off of a penny. If it succeeded, then it is still hardened. If not, then it is non hardened metal. I hope that I'm recalling this correctly. Your test is akin to this except the blade is the test piece, not the penny (or in this case the file).

 

I did find that there are two different hardness testers available. One uses ultrasound and the other uses some sort of compression device. They are about $4 and $8K respectively, and I have no idea what industry uses them or how I can track one down.

[cabowen]

I didn't want to mention the use of a file as in the wrong hands and without experience, you may either cause damage or not know how to "read" the result. Using a soft metal to rub against a sharp edge is the standard way to tell, as Brian demonstrated, with a sharp sword. Since yours isn't sharp, that won't work. Standard hardness testing puts a dent in the test piece which while small isn't something I would want. Ultrasonic testing is a better route. Call some local machine shops to see if they have an ultrasonic tester- they might test it for you.

[Surfson]

All good points Chris. I will see if I can find an ultrasonic hardness tester. I just have to make sure that I don't use it to test my will.... Cheers, Bob

[ROKUJURO]

...... Is there a certain type of file that I would need to get, other than avoiding a diamond file? .....

Robert,

 

if you follow my instructions, there is no danger of damaging the blade. You are certainly not going to file on the blade but just test if the file gets a 'grip'. As I wrote, a fine metal file in good condition will work. A penny will not work as it is copper (at least it was in my youth), so the hardness difference is way too big. Any steel is harder than a penny.

 

A hardness testing device is a good thing when you need exact hardness data. You can find them at some upper level knifemakers', or as Chris said, at a machining shop, or of course at a hardening shop. A Rockwell measuring device will leave a very small indentation from a tiny diamond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_scale) which will disappear in a polish.

[Toryu2020]

Robert -

I have to agree with Malcolm, my very first thought looking at this was habiki. Then I read your description and it bears that out. Gekken as he mentioned involved "hard training" and you would be surprised at what those tough little guys could do even with a long sword. (at that time especially with a long sword)

 

I would be very surprised if it has hamon, but certainly it must have been hardened. I personally would look into it's history, look for other examples, nail down just what it is before looking to polish it.

 

mho

-tch

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning Thomas.,

 

My feeling is that this is a really rare example of a practical training Koshirae.

 

I was first thinking something like Tennen Rishin Ryu or full on Jigen Ryu.

 

I noticed particularly the ferrule reinforcement at the area from Kurikata to Koiguchi.

 

Then because of the leather padding on a wooden tsuba, I wondered if it was primarily a receiving sword.

 

The striking sword being a Bokuto.

 

Which kind of shoots my Jigen Ryu theory down as the concept of blocking is anathema.

 

Perhaps one of the Itto ryu variations?

 

Hokushin Itto Ryu could be a contender as that was known from Aizu and Northwards.

 

Could it have been owned by one of the Shinsengumi Bad Boys gone North?

 

The last statement was a shameless attempt at obtaining a Manga/Anime Otaku 101 credit.....

 

Back to rationality, we know from the writings of Tesshu Yamaoka, Uyeshiba Morihei and Takeda Sokaku that specialised training weapons such as extra heavy Bokuto for Tanren training or Iron bars for So-Jutsu were used:

 

I'd like to see more pictures of the entire Koshirae.

 

Cheers

[Surfson]

I am enjoying this discussion, because it is going into an area in which I am naive. Malcolm, here are a few that I already took. Let me know additional features that would be informative. It's interesting to me that it doesn't have a kurikata, indicating that it was probably not carried or worn. Also, the saya wrap, which looks like baileen to me, appears to have been coated near the kojiri, perhaps to stem some wear. Cheers, Bob

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning all.,

 

Thank you Robert, for posting more images of the Koshirae, it really is an interesting item.

 

The absence of a Kurikata does not mean it could not be worn in a training environment.

 

The tightness of the Obi and Hakama Himo determine whether a saya slips or not, the Kurikata has very little to do with it.

 

The saya wrap looks like a split grass or some vegetable fibre which has been bound very tightly around the saya and laquered.

 

Ages ago Tsuruta san had a sword in his Iai section which had similar wrap over Kojiri and Kashira, as I recall he described the Koshirae as late Edo, specifically for Iai training.

 

The Koshirae looks like it was meant for some serious useage.

 

Again thank you for posting the extra images.

 

Cheers

[Surfson]

Malcolm, I believe these to be the original koshirae for this blade, and the blade is dated 1856. Based on the near total lack of wear on the tsuka, I find it hard to believe that it was used for some sort of training. In addition, the padded tsuba would be worn as well I would think if the blade was repeatedly struck by an opponents practice sword. If it is a practice sword, I don't think that it was used much. Have you ever seen this type of koshirae in the past? Cheers, Bob

[Baka Gaijin]

Good afternoon Robert.,

 

Is it a full wrap same or is there a join line on the omote side?

 

If it's a full wrap, it suggests that someone cared that the tsuka would be strong

 

The thickness of the tsuba reminds me of the type used in Maniwa Nen Ryu:

 

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/isyota/e/9b8907ff ... 8108a01e87

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/oroshi/8958080504/

 

 

I have never seen a Koshirae like this before, perhaps one of our senior members has.

 

Cheers

[Surfson]

Hi Malcolm. The same has a join on the omote. I suppose that I am a senior member (at least chronologically, not based on expertise), and I have never seen koshirae like this! I hope that somebody recognizes it. Cheers, Bob

[cisco-san]

maybe interesting (from Markus´s book):

 

Naoyoshi (直義), Keiō (慶応, 1865-1868), Mikawa – „Ganryūshin Naoyoshi“ (眼龍心直吉), „Senshinshi Naoyoshi“ (泉心子直吉), „Mikawa Koromo-shi Yamaguchi Tetsuyata Minamoto Naoyoshi“ (三河拳母士山口徹弥太源直義), „Senshinshi Naoyoshi“ (泉心子直義), „Matsumae Fukuyama no kenkō Senshinshi Minamoto Naoyoshi kore o tsukuru“ (松前福山剣工泉心子源直義造之), civilian name „Yamaguchi Tetsuyata“ (山口徹弥太), according to transmission the son of the 6th gen. Naomichi (直道), he was born in Owari province and studied under Hamabe Toshizane (寿実) and Taikei Naotane (大慶直胤), at the time of his studies he signed his name with the characters (直吉) and lived in Edo´s Nezu district (根津), then during the Ka´ei era (嘉永, 1848-1854) he was hired by the Matsuae family which ruled the Matsumae fief (松前藩) on Hokkaidō of the same name, with this he moved to Urakawa (浦河) to the Hidaka district (日高国浦河) on the southern end of Hokkaidō, there he died at the age of 74, he used the gō „Ganryūshin“ (眼龍心) and „Senshinshi“ (泉心子) and also worked in Koromo (拳母) in Mikawa province, we know date signature from the Ka´ei to the Keiō era, early workes signed with „Naoyoshi“ (直吉) are interpreted in the style of the Hamabe school, i.e. in chōji-midare, later works which are signed with „Naoyoshi“ (直義) have mostly a borad mihaba and show a gunome-midare in nie-deki

[Surfson]

Thanks Klaus. This fits with what was suggested earlier and the Ezochi signature, indicating it was made in Hokkaido. I suppose if it does have a hamon it will be a broad midare gonome. Cheers, Bob