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Utsuri

Darcy

By Darcy
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Darcy Mentor

Darcy

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It is a real treat. It is also a lot of risk, a lot of expense, a lot of responsibility, and a lot of work, but it is so very fulfilling to find something extremely special like this. It's like having a baby as the work involved takes about nine months between the glitter in the eye to being able to list it.

 

The sword appears fairly sedate until the light hits at the right angle, then the utsuri begins to reveal in layers and ultimately is like fireworks going off.

 

Trying to document this sword properly is taking over 200 photos.

 

I showed this sword to Ando san and he raved about it for a long while. He couldn't quite get his impression sorted out into English, kept saying do you understand what I am trying to say?

 

He was working around the idea that many students fail because they cannot completely absorb what their teacher is trying to give to them. Of those that remain, they are successful if they can only replicate what the teacher has given. Then the very few are able to take what was given, completely internalize it and then take the next leap. He pointed at this and said, "This guy did that."

 

Honami Kochu appraised it in 1712 as 100 gold pieces.

 

Actually I'll add in 4 photos that show the utsuri developing as the light changes. There are others with a more flamboyant hamon from this school but this one wins the utsuri contest.

 

fuku1.jpg

fuku2.jpg

fuku3.jpg

fuku4.jpg

Uechi Collaborator

Uechi

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:Drool:

What a priviledge it must be to be able to handle and work with swords like this.

 

Brian

 

 

All it takes is deep pockets, unfortunately out of reach for mere mortals.

Darcy Mentor

Darcy

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It's more of a question of how the smith did it. Ted thinks it may have been a clayless temper that generated this sword.

 

Anyway it's just bursting out, some setsumei you read and it says the sword has utsuri and you need to search for it. Previously the strongest utsuri I've seen is on a Kanemitsu that I have. Often I see it on Ichimonji setsumei but it is faint at best. One I remember that was a slender blade had nice vivid utsuri. But this one is just the utsuri champion and if you point it the correct way there it is. You would never even know it is there by looking at it face on, as you can see from the first picture.

drjoe Rising Star

drjoe

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I was lucky enough to handle this and Ted's other Ichimonji blades at SF Token Kai this year.

 

You guys always say to study before buying a nihonto so that you know what's good and bad. Well, I have been studying for a while now and what I really want is a Bizen Ichimonji. Ha! Well, I guess I'll have to be satisfied with seeing these blades at shows. There were some really nice Bizen Ichimonji this year that were so nice you almost wanted to cry.

 

On one of Ted's blades -- I don't remember if this was it, I asked him why the polisher didn't highlight more of the activity above the hamon. Stuff that looked like tobiyaki. Well, Ted said... that's utsuri! I had never seen utsuri so prominent before (in fact a few years ago, Ted was trying to show me utsuri on a blade and it took me several minutes to imagine that I did) -- it was a sight to behold.

 

It seems like some feel that Bizen Ichimonji is flamboyant, and someone recently implied that I wasn't mature enough to appreciate a good suguha hamon, but I can't get over the beauty of these blades and I feel there's a lot of subtlety in them.

 

I always thought that most Bizen Ichimonji were made with hadaka-yaki. I've seen a couple of good discussions about what utsuri really is -- like on Markus' blog -- but it seems like it is somewhat unknown still. It makes sense though that what we're seeing on Ichimonji blades might be a product of hadaka-yaki.

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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There has been much discussion as to whether the Ichimonji smiths were consciously trying to produce utsuri or whether it was simply a byproduct of their hardening technique. It is most likely that it was an accident which was then found desirable and efforts were then made to produce it. As there are several variables at play and all must be within a narrow range for it to occur, consciously producing it requires great skill. There are modern smiths who have succeeded in producing quite vivid utsuri on demand and I have seen wwii era blades with what in most cases is an accidental utsuri as well. I own a Yasukuni-to by Kajiyama Yasunori blade done in the style of Koto Bizen complete with utsuri... It is quite interesting to see when present and many find it beautiful. Practically speaking, it seems to add little.

 

Must say Dr. Joe that I have never heard Ichimonji described as "subtle" before! Your passion is a pleasure to see....

Gasam Community Regular

Gasam

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Does anyone know of some articles or such that discusses the processes involved in making utsuri? I was under the impression that its manufacture was somewhat of a mystery, how the old smiths did this. But if later and modern smiths have been able to reproduce it, even by happenstance, there must be some good theories at least :-) On a wakizashi of mine, utsuri can bee seen, so it would be nice to know more about it.

 

I am very interested in the whole process of forging the Japanese sword, so any opportunity to learn......

drjoe Rising Star

drjoe

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I can't imagine that making utsuri would be intentional back then.

 

I mean, doesn't it seem likely that blades weren't even in full polish in those days?

 

I am an amateur/hobbyist blade smith and I have produced utsuri, or something like it, accidentally on many occasions.

 

I'm on an iPhone now, so I don't have the link, but Markus Sesko has a good discussion of utsuri on his site.

Ted Tenold Mentor

Ted Tenold

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@Joe; It was nice to see you at the show, and I'm glad you had the chance to look at some nice swords. For clarity though, the swords are consignment pieces, not my own, and I photograph under Darcy's keen eye and patient instruction. :-) They are indeed a great pleasure to behold rivaling top swords "behind glass" in Japan and elsewhere. :Drooling:

 

I remember showing you the sword you mentioned having difficulty seeing the utsuri a few years ago at one of the NBTHK/AB display and lectures. That sword was a katana by Tairyusai Sokan, a shinshinto sword. While he is known for utsuri in his works it's a lot more subtle than the Ichimonji. It takes time to train the eyes to see the subtlety of that particular work and it wasn't the best starting platform for you. Ichimonji, especially Fukuoka which tend to be more flamboyant and vibrant, are the perfect candidate for study of such a feature. The other Ichimonji also have it in varied degrees, but really it also depends greatly on the health of the sword. The steel at the original surface of the sword when it was quenched receives the brunt of the violence in the process and the fingerprint of that interaction is most vibrant there. As the sword is polished down, the features become dimmer, muddy, blurred, patchy, or disappear altogether. In Japan a few years ago, I was shown an Ichimonji that was quite frankly, in stunning health, and the utsuri was actually *streaming* on the surface in bright shades. It was amazing. Undoubtedly, polishing diminishes this vibrance over time, so seeing the layering effect such as in the one pictured above, is also indicative of seeing a sword in excellent health and we don't have to construct much of an image in our minds of what it looked like the day it was first delivered.

 

Regarding the polishing; no one really knows to what degree swords were polished in the Kamakura Jidai. Our image of polishing today is biased by the development of materials and techniques used pretty much since Meiji. Before that, polishing incorporated some different stones (which are now no longer available as the quarries are exhausted), higher quality of the same used today, and there were other schools which likely had some individual techniques and applications. I did once have the opportunity to see a sword that was in it's first and original polish from 1859. The foundation was well attended, but the finish was dull, in sashikomi style, and lack luster. It was ordered and intended as a diplomatic gift, so it was nothing about it was a half measure. Had it not remained in an especially dry and amenable environment for over 100 years, it probably would have been corroded, but even the original shirasaya was in good condition (though inferior in craft by today's standards). Obviously polishes don't last forever especially in Japan's environment and during periods of constant warfare. However, we know that terms such as "utsuri" have been used and associated since early koto times, and that the reproduction of such a feature was a target of the makers, controllable or not, consistently repeatable or not. Therefore the state of polishes has to be sufficiently clear to identify the feature and give it a name. Other crafts in Japan required a fairly sophisticated knowledge of polishing, such as would be necessary for mirror makers and lacquer artists so it's not unreasonable that polishing of swords could have been quite sophisticated even if only the best swords were polished to the highest degree, with lesser works receiving only fundamental polishing/honing as weapon maintenance . Really vivid utsuri can be revealed somewhat early in the polishing process and even weaker utsuri should be identifiable by the uchigumori stone (the last in the foundation work). The shiage stage of polishing refines it and other features further.

 

@Gasam; The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Yoshindo Yoshihara, and Leon and Hiroko Kapp has Yoshihara san's description of the conditions under which he creates utsuri. I believe there was an article some years ago regarding the theories of clay-less (or very slight application of clay) heat treating authored by Shannon Hogg, and there is at least one contemporary smith in Japan that has experimented with the technique with some compelling results showing that it is possible. One bladesmith here in the US has also created an impressive example of heat treating without clay or refractory cement (commonly used by smiths outside Japan instead of traditional composition).

drjoe Rising Star

drjoe

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Ted, thanks again for showing those blades and the teaching. As a novice, what I remember about the shinshinto blade from a few years ago was that the utsuri was subtle because it was dark, a real shadow effect. But on the ichimonji blades it was so bright/white that I assumed it was tobiyaki or hitatsura.

 

When I get back into town I will post a picture of some of the utsuri-like effects I have inadvertently produced in my blades.

 

In the meantime, here is the link to Markus' discussion about utsuri

 

http://markussesko.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... on-utsuri/

Darcy Mentor

Darcy

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However, we know that terms such as "utsuri" have been used and associated since early koto times, and that the reproduction of such a feature was a target of the makers, controllable or not, consistently repeatable or not.

How do we know this?

 

The Nihonto Koza indicates that the term utsuri was in use during the Kamakura period, and that terms like Kage Utsuri were old and replaced by the end of the Kamakura period.

 

Ji utsuri is a remarkable special trait of the products of this kuni throughout the koto period. That which is referred to as "ji utsuri" appears as thin white clouds or mist in a portion of the ji, separated from the hamon, and as for its true composition, if one listens to the togishi, said section is said to be harder in comparison to other sections of the ji, has some sort of relation to the placement of the clay at the time of the hardening of the blade, and it is presumed that extremely light hardening has entered this section. Up until around the late Kamakura period, this was called KAGE UTSURI , and because it was a little bit separated from the hamon and generally appeared following the curvature of the hamon, in the works after that until around EISHO (Nihonto Koza)

 

This took me about 5 minutes to look up. No doubt there are other references. Since you missed class that day probably you should hit the books.

 

Also of related interest:

 

The bringing out of ji utsuri in the blade is viewed as being extremely difficult, and even in the shinto jidai, the kaji who forged in the Bizen Den (Bizen Tradition) seemed to have gone to a great deal of trouble in imitating this, but there were very few who succeeded.

Darcy Mentor

Darcy

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In the meantime, here is the link to Markus' discussion about utsuri

 

http://markussesko.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... on-utsuri/

 

This is a good read too.

 

I love that this is a lost technology that brings out all kinds of interesting theories and conjectures. Here were are 7 centuries later with all the benefits of modern science and we're scratching our heads. Maybe one of them has hit on it, maybe nobody did and they are all alternative ways of producing come kind of utsuri. Maybe two or more hit on it.

 

One thing that I am interested in with this subject is how utsuri evolved from midare into bo then vanished. I don't think personally that it was a loss of skill. Yasumitsu has made signed blades that show choji midare utsuri. A member here has one and it is Juyo. It is proof that the Oei Bizen smiths were able to produce this style of utsuri, though most of their work is bo utsuri and bo utsuri really began to appear a generation before them.

 

So... the question is why?

 

Is bo utsuri something that performed a similar function but was easier or more cost effective to make?

 

Did it outperform in some use criteria for the sword?

 

Has to be one of those two. Since the various theories can't for sure agree on whether it is harder or softer or what exactly it is for, it's hard to know. Obviously it has an aesthetic property too. And after Oei it vanishes. We're left with a why for that one as well. Afterwards though it becomes officially lost. So, what it set aside for a reason?

 

Is Midare -> Bo -> Nothing a series of cost reducing measures as we head into the Muromachi period? Seems to me like it could be a practical explanation. Without these examples from Yasumitsu that show he could make a blade that people will confuse for Kamakura Bizen I think that an argument that it is decay of skill only seems as valid.

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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It would seem I should have parsed the quote to make my question clearer:

 

However, we know that ....the reproduction of such a feature was a target of the makers, controllable or not, consistently repeatable or not.

 

How do we know the original koto smiths were consciously controlling their process to purposely produce utsuri? In other words, how do we know it wasn't the natural outcome of their particular materials and process and not a conscious target?

 

Surely later smiths in attempting to recreate the works of the early smiths were conscious in their efforts, but what proof do we have in regards to early work?

 

This quote from Markus' research into Kiromaro is interesting:

 

"Another anecdote ...So he asked Sugane: „Master, I need your advice again. How am I able to reproduce utsuri?“ He told him of all the attempts he had tried so far until Sugane interrupted him: „That is actually the problem. You want it too much. Forge your blades without forging in mind, like the old Bizen masters did. Then you will be able to reproduce utsuri.“ And the anecdote says that his mentor was right and soon he was able to apply a controlled utsuri."

 

Is Midare -> Bo -> Nothing a series of cost reducing measures as we head into the Muromachi period? Seems to me like it could be a practical explanation. Without these examples from Yasumitsu that show he could make a blade that people will confuse for Kamakura Bizen I think that an argument that it is decay of skill only seems as valid.

 

 

It might be a practical explanation if producing utsuri was in some way materially more costly than not producing utsuri. Since it comes down to the particulars of the heat treatment, and it happens often without any conscious effort, I think it is safe to say that cost wouldn't seem to be a factor.

 

In order to ascertain exactly why it disappeared it must be established beyond a doubt whether or not it was a conscious part of the process or a natural occurrence give the materials and process. If it was conscious, then we can assume there was likewise a conscious and most likely practical reason/effort for it's change and disappearance. If it made a superior sword, then why make a conscious decision to change or stop? What would the rationale be? Perhaps the most obvious answer is a simple loss of the skills necessary to control the heat treatment process as required. This seems a stretch if you believe they were consciously able to control it at will. If you believe it makes a superior sword and that it was consciously produced then there is really no rational reason for its cessation.

 

If it was a natural part of the process, then we can assume that as the materials and process changed, that very narrow set of variables that must align to produce it simply failed to align any longer on a consistent basis and that it disappeared naturally, just as it occurred. Since we know that there was a significant change in the materials and process as time went on, the simplest explanation is that it died a natural death when those changes moved it out of the sweet spot...The fact that it is still seen later in a blade here or there, for example in a work by Yasumitsu, might simply be a natural (re)occurrence.

 

The earliest swords all seem to have a very natural, organic, almost amorphous quality to the ji-ba that gives one the impression that nature was given a free hand. As time goes by, works become more and more organized and controlled, some would say contrived, in later times. I would interpret the comment above by Sugane as making this distinction and one reason why Kiyomaro's work is so well regarded as much of it has a very natural, organic quality to it.

Brian

Brian

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Guess I was absent the day this was covered....How do we know this? Are there early koto (say, circa 1200) sources that confirm this? What might they be?

This sounds less like a useful question, and more like sarcastic trolling. Can't just be me, because I have had a few other pm's saying the same thing.

It has been proven that utsuri was known back in Kamakura times. Since it is featured in only certain schools at that time, and not most of the others, it seems logical that it was through technique and not accident. And if it was noticed and repeated, then it was likely created on purpose from that point on after it was "discovered" If it wasn't, it changes nothing concerning the topic at hand.

This isn't the Spanish inquisition, and we are all here for fun and education, not personal duels. I will not entertain this repeated trolling.

 

Brian

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

Posted
Posted
Guess I was absent the day this was covered....How do we know this? Are there early koto (say, circa 1200) sources that confirm this? What might they be?

This sounds less like a useful question, and more like sarcastic trolling. Can't just be me, because I have had a few other pm's saying the same thing.

It has been proven that utsuri was known back in Kamakura times. Since it is featured in only certain schools at that time, and not most of the others, it seems logical that it was through technique and not accident. And if it was noticed and repeated, then it was likely created on purpose from that point on after it was "discovered" If it wasn't, it changes nothing concerning the topic at hand.

This isn't the Spanish inquisition, and we are all here for fun and education, not personal duels. I will not entertain this repeated trolling.

 

Brian

 

 

I was not insulting and asked for simple substantiation of a statement made as fact. Asking someone to support their statement is trolling? Hardly.

 

It is hard to understand why the importance of the question has eluded you (and others) and, also, quite contrary to your own stated purpose of "education" to quash honest debate by calling it trolling. What seems at first glance a rather trifling point actually contains several rather important issues, several of which I outlined above.

 

I have heard this point debated in Japan and there are indeed varying opinions so I can see nothing wrong with asking Ted for substantiation of his statement. It is interesting that we have heard replies from several people but not Ted, to whom my question addressed.

 

If (certain) people are free to make these types of "factual" statements without having them questioned, and those that do hold them accountable are called trolls, then this forum is really not about education at all....it's about cronyism, the truth be damned. We have seen this time and again here and it is really too bad because many people want to get to the truth rather than pet your sacred cows. I too have had a few pm's saying the same thing.

 

It's not hard to understand why many of the more knowledgeable people here have left.

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Brian

Brian

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Yes, most of them left because they don't like to be trolled.

 

You questioned Teds (very informative post!) comment saying

However, we know that terms such as "utsuri" have been used and associated since early koto times, and that the reproduction of such a feature was a target of the makers, controllable or not, consistently repeatable or not.

But earlier in the thread you yourself said

It is most likely that it was an accident which was then found desirable and efforts were then made to produce it. As there are several variables at play and all must be within a narrow range for it to occur, consciously producing it requires great skill.

Not sure exactly what you were disputing. That they recognized it? That it was known? Both of those have been shown to be true from the Nihonto Koza.

If they consistently produced it, and it appeared, then they were creating it. Since it is limited to schools, it was a feature of those smiths, and obviously acknowledged.

The fact that there is always a reason to debate anything said, does not mean it HAS to be debated. Especially every time certain people make a comment. There is a big difference between discussion and debating people to death. You would be best served learning the distinction.

You can also drop the victim card. This remains my forum and a small community, and I do base my actions on numerous feedbacks from a broad spectrum of this community.

I asked you nicely before to avoid debating certain members, but you clearly chose to ignore that request. So now I am done with asking.

Your help is invaluable when it comes to translations and Gendaito, and is appreciated by us all. Your focus there is appreciated and welcomed. You need to decide if you wish to help solve problems, or create some.

 

Brian

cabowen Grand Master

cabowen

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Yes, most of them left because they don't like to be trolled.

 

Not what I have been told first hand....

 

You questioned Teds (very informative post!) comment saying
However, we know that terms such as "utsuri" have been used and associated since early koto times, and that the reproduction of such a feature was a target of the makers, controllable or not, consistently repeatable or not.

 

But earlier in the thread you yourself said

It is most likely that it was an accident which was then found desirable and efforts were then made to produce it. As there are several variables at play and all must be within a narrow range for it to occur, consciously producing it requires great skill.

 

 

 

Not sure exactly what you were disputing.

 

I asked for a source that confirms that "we know... it was a target of the makers" as many contend that it was a naturally occurring phenomenon in the earlier smiths rather than a conscious creation. It is an important point for reasons I have already spoken to above. If I would have asked it of anyone other than one of your cronies it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

When "certain people" make statements presented as "fact" that aren't necessarily fact, I see no reason why they shouldn't be called on it, just like everyone else. Clearly, your stated preference is that "certain people" remain above questioning. That's called cronyism. It's not "education", in fact it is at odds with education. It's also childish and cowardly.

 

No, not everything need be debated. Odd though that the only time this comes up is when it involves one of your "certain people". In this case, the ramifications are significant whether you understand them or not, and like it or not, it has indeed been debated for quite a long time.

 

I have in fact been one of the main contributors on this site and have shared much of both my time and experience. I did this because I believe in helping people as others have helped me. There is a lot of misinformation and bs out there and many "experts" spreading it. It was my original belief that this forum's goal was to combat this misinformation by furthering understanding and to help others advance their knowledge-clearly that is only true until "certain people" are concerned.

 

What I really need to decide is to what extent your unequal enforcement of the rules and cronyism has compromised my ability to help others if I must avoid questioning the statements of "certain people" and whether or not it's worth subjugating my belief in the importance of the truth.

paulb Grand Master

paulb

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Hi Franco

Something I heard but dont know as fact. The steel used for Bizen swords in particular was softer than some others. Therefore Utsuri offered a form of "case hardenning" which strengthed the blade. I wrote some while ago about utsuri (not in depth or great knowledge) but thought it yet another form of nioi based activity within the jigane. Also questioned whether it might be created in clayless hardening by a transition layer of steam above the water surface which would cool the surface more slowly than immersion but faster than air cooling.

All hyperthetical but possilbe food for thought.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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