Very odd blade

[Ken-Hawaii]

I was browsing through Aoi Art, & came across http://www.aoijapan.com/masterpiecesaneo. I'm not at all sure why this blade is made this way, although Tsuruta-san does say that it's a chikushi naginata. I can't see why Kiyomaro's brother, or anyone else, would make something like this if it was meant to be used as a naginata.

 

Is there a reason or purpose that I'm managing to miss?

 

Ken

[cabowen]

There are nata that are made similarly. It fits over the end of a shaft and can then be used to stab or chop. Seems like it would work well enough- what do you see as problem Ken?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Not a problem really, Chris, but it strikes me that it would be a whole lot of work to create a blade with two points, and a hamon that almost reaches both points just to then add a bracket to attach to a shaft. Not really very efficient, in my view.

 

Ken

[cabowen]

There isn't a hamon at the bottom end and the attachment bracket is welded on. Does seem like a lot of extra work....I think the form is old and comes from agricultural implements.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yeah, nearly all the Japanese weapons I've trained with, or even seen, have been really very efficient, Chris, and I think that's part of what's bothering me. It must be a real pain in the okole just to figure out how to hold onto the blade for yaki-ire. And how did Saneo keep the blade from curving any more than 1.4 cm?

 

Ken

[sanjuro]

As far as I remember, (not that I was actually there at the time), early naginata were actually developed from a long baling spike which had this sort of old bayonet socket. They went through development stages that included the one this blade has been made in, before finally arriving at the design of naginata we are more familiar with.

[cabowen]

Yeah, nearly all the Japanese weapons I've trained with, or even seen, have been really very efficient, Chris, and I think that's part of what's bothering me. It must be a real pain in the okole just to figure out how to hold onto the blade for yaki-ire. And how did Saneo keep the blade from curving any more than 1.4 cm?

 

Ken

 

 

They make the blade with a slight reverse curvature....They probably had a handle welded to the end that they cut off or used a long pair of tongs....

[John A Stuart]

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/494270127826927079/

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/2009/0910_4003syousai.htm John

[Darcy]

I'd guess that there are a number of advantages to this design.

 

Pole manufacture is made a lot more simple for not having to have a long socket.

 

This one example John linked has a socket and a metal insert at the end then is bound, which should resolve the crushing force the socket will exert on the end. Maybe a problem with the standard shape is some fragility in the pole through the socket and the mouth.

 

Looks like it gets held in place as well with a wedge. Overall the system looks to me like it has more strength for the weight involved. The wedge is probably necessary as well as over time the socket will continue to compress the wood. Due to the small size of the socket vs. the long socket of the naginata it is going to exert more pressure during impact and wear more, so designing to have a wedge that can be tapped easily to tighten it is a simple and easy solution to that problem.

 

Such a thing as well will move the center of gravity higher in the pole so it is going to hit even more like an axe. Maybe that is a drawback or tradeoff for the above and part of why it is not so common vs. the standard naginata design.

[Ken-Hawaii]

An interesting observation, Darcy - thanks! I hadn't thought about the engineering aspects of using the blade, just the manufacturing efficiency.

 

And thanks for clarifying how the smith might have made it, Chris.

 

Ken

[Jussi Ekholm]

The name Chikushi naginata has it's roots in the area where naginata of this type were historically most popular.

 

 

As you can see from the skecthes there are multiple variations of this naginata type. Unfortunately I have quite little information of this type in my books.

 

You can see relevance to some European polearms such as bardiche or voulge. Which have similar socketed build as Chikushi naginata.

 

 

It's also fun to note how historically both Chikushi naginata and bardiche seemed to be bit concentrated on certain area while rest of surrounding area used the more popular style of polearm.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Very cool, Jussi! Thanks for that information.

 

Ken

[SwordGuyJoe]

This is a great thread. I've never seen anything like this before. Awesome