Tameshigiri nowadays with shinto or even koto?

[Widowmaker]

Hello everyone,

 

There is a question which has been echoed in my mind for long time. I know that people who bought antique Nihonto will probably never make tameshigiri with due to their high historical and estethical value. However, I wonder if there are people today who still make tameshigiri with aged Nihonto? I think that Gendaito should have no problem. Maybe Shinshinto is still capable of such as a work as well. But what about Shinto and Koto?

 

Do they still have such a functionality for use? Are the steel hard and tough enough for this?

 

If yes, please show me some links. It would be a great pleasure to see this.

 

Thank you in advance!!

[takakage]

Hi,

 

Tameshigiri whithout practice Iaido or batto do ????? Beware to yours hands and fingers.......

[Widowmaker]

Hi,

 

Tameshigiri whithout practice Iaido or batto do ????? Beware to yours hands and fingers.......

 

Well I am aware of that. But let's suppose that we are talking about someone who are extremly skillful in iaido or battodo.

[takakage]

I have seen,

Shin shinto often mumei, showato in spite their shorts lengths and gendaito of course.

[John A Stuart]

I was at a sumo exhibition at Yasakunijinja with Paul Martin a few years ago and we were discussing a film that some foreigners made with his help that had a well-known swordsman perform tameshigiri. It came about in this discussion that this person used a very old sword at which we marvelled that he would do so. We reckoned that at his level he was confident in his skill to do so. John

[cabowen]

I have seen tameshigiri performed with Ichimonji, sandai Tadayoshi, Sa Yukihide, and a variety of mumei and gimei older blades, in addition to WWII and shinsakuto. Old blades, provided they aren't tired, seem to perform perfectly fine. Steel doesn't lose strength with time if kept corrosion and stress free.

 

Yes, the people using the big dollar blades were very confident in their abilities.

[Widowmaker]

That is amazing to hear.

 

Maybe I should consider some older blade rather than Gendaito since they are still capable of Tameshigiri if we have excellent skill.

 

Please tell me what do you think about this?

 

Thank you for your information.

[Jean]

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_cold_weather.html

[cabowen]

I should instead look for more, research more and learn more about Nihonto before purchasing anything.

 

I think you must clarify for yourself what it is you seek. If you want a practical sword that is traditionally made by a skilled smith with very good workmanship, one that can be used without fear of destroying or ruining something irreplaceable, you have it. If you want a full-on collectible art sword which displays excellent craftsmanship and would be a sin to use for fear of damage, you should buy something else. Do you want a new corvette you can drive daily, or a 1956 porsche you take to car shows on a trailer?

[Jean]

Well worded Chris

[Jussi Ekholm]

Like I said on another forum I think it's a good sword Zhang. If and when you decide to use it for tameshigiri I believe it will perform well.

 

You can see that on different forums people see things differently. Here at NMB pretty much all Japanese swords and related things are usually met with proper attitude in my mind. Of course very high level stuff gets more praising than low level stuff but that's understandable. Then you have the production sword forums where 100$ Chinese made replica might get praises and that is not a bad thing either. Heck I've given some credit to those myself. But they are usually not the platform I'd take on more serious nihonto discussion. Of course there are also people that only focus on the really high end stuff.

 

The great thing about NMB and all the collectors I've met is the fact that they appreciate pieces of various quality. You can see here very experienced collectors giving comments and insight on items of varying quality.

 

Don't be discouraged about your purchase. I would be happy to own a modern sword like that Kanehide. Of course the most important thing is that you like it.

[Widowmaker]

Like I said on another forum I think it's a good sword Zhang. If and when you decide to use it for tameshigiri I believe it will perform well.

 

You can see that on different forums people see things differently. Here at NMB pretty much all Japanese swords and related things are usually met with proper attitude in my mind. Of course very high level stuff gets more praising than low level stuff but that's understandable. Then you have the production sword forums where 100$ Chinese made replica might get praises and that is not a bad thing either. Heck I've given some credit to those myself. But they are usually not the platform I'd take on more serious nihonto discussion. Of course there are also people that only focus on the really high end stuff.

 

The great thing about NMB and all the collectors I've met is the fact that they appreciate pieces of various quality. You can see here very experienced collectors giving comments and insight on items of varying quality.

 

Don't be discouraged about your purchase. I would be happy to own a modern sword like that Kanehide. Of course the most important thing is that you like it.

 

Hi Jussi.

 

Sorry for my misleading English, but I don't mean Forum of Chinese made katana, but a semi professional forum of real Nihonto in China. They only collect Gunto and real Nihonto and exchange informations between them. Of course Chinese made 100$ katana are not their concern. That is why they made me doubting about the true quality of this Nihonto since their opinion on it is not very high.

 

But thank you for your comments. That is very kind from you.

 

Chris, what you said is right. My stuff would be mostly the Corvette car. Funtionnability is my first concern. As the Japanese Smith said in the documentary "The art of Japanese Swords": the beauty of the Nihonto does not come from the look on first place, but from the fact it is something which cut, extremly well, and which can kill people. That is the real beauty. A Nihonto that we don't dare using and we conserve in a corner of a house for long time cannot fulfill its true value. We often say that every Nihonto has a soul in it and is linked to its user. Let's imagin a samurai who does nothing than stay in house and sleeping all day, he has no honor and is not worthy of his blade. Same thing happens to a Nihonto.

 

That is my personal opinion. Correct me if I said something wrong. Thank you very much

[Jussi Ekholm]

Don't worry about your explanation, your English is perfectly fine. I understood what you meant and it was my wording that could have used tweaking...

 

What I meant that based on the comments you posted I got a very elitist vibe from that Chinese forum. As I read those comments meaning in bit negative feeling towards your new sword, which in my eyes would be a nice sword. And on the opposite end on some production sword forums even tired and rusty genuine Japanese swords get a lot of praises just because they are Japanese swords. That was kinda the scenario I tried to word out regarding different levels of collecting.

[Stephen]

Kanehide was used in world record in 2000, I would not worry, is it in good polish.

 

http://www.swordpolish.com/

 

click on world record.

[cabowen]

What I meant that based on the comments you posted I got a very elitist vibe from that Chinese forum.

 

I am not so sure they are being elitist, they are simply focused on art blades. There are many collectors who would not be interested in Kanebo, Takada, Sue Koto in general, waki-mono in particular, flashy Shinto and Shinshinto, and certainly nothing post Sekigahara. There are collectors who will have nothing to do with anything made during WWII or later. There are all kinds of collectors with all differing tastes and financial resources.

 

Have a read of the Yamanaka Newsletters some time and you will see the traditional high brow Japanese approach wherein smiths like Sukehiro, Shinkai, Masahide, Naotane, etc., are poo-pooed as second rate or worse.

 

Iai-to are not made to the same standards as "art swords" as I have said. To people who are into the art in "art sword" they are like other lowly rated, practical blades. For people into the practical aspects, they will find nothing wrong with them. I haven't met anyone who collects iai-to but there may be those that do. In the long view, they will take their place alongside the other practically made blades as mentioned above. They may never receive the respect and adulation of the finer art swords, but they will have their fans just the same.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I haven't met anyone who collects iai-to

 

I don't know of anyone, either, but I've collected about a half-dozen of them as I either wear them out or upgrade to new ones over the years.

 

Zhang, I really don't understand why anyone would choose to use a Nihonto for tameshigiri when there are plenty of well-made, inexpensive shinken available on the market. In both bamboo & tatami omote, there's a lot of silicon that will scratch any steel blade, so although you COULD use Nihonto, I really don't think you SHOULD use them unless you have a throw-away blade, in which case you shouldn't be using it for safety reasons.

 

Ken

[Widowmaker]

I haven't met anyone who collects iai-to

 

I don't know of anyone, either, but I've collected about a half-dozen of them as I either wear them out or upgrade to new ones over the years.

 

Zhang, I really don't understand why anyone would choose to use a Nihonto for tameshigiri when there are plenty of well-made, inexpensive shinken available on the market. In both bamboo & tatami omote, there's a lot of silicon that will scratch any steel blade, so although you COULD use Nihonto, I really don't think you SHOULD use them unless you have a throw-away blade, in which case you shouldn't be using it for safety reasons.

 

Ken

 

I can understand that there is a big risk of break or bend when unknowledged and unskillful people use them to practice. That would be really sad and stupid for something so valueble which has been conserved generation by generation to be destroyed in the hand of amateur beginner.

 

However, as I said in my previous post, it is a question of mentality. I think that we should make the Nihonto alive instead of putting it eternally in its saya in a corner and take it out only occasionally. I want to train with it so that it can become part of me and is linked to me. A Nihonto is made for use, not for appreciating at the beginning. Japanese didn't fabricate Nihonto for art appreciation, it never was. They were created to defend the land against Mongol, they were used to kill people, to protect family and to fight ennemy with honor, or execute. They have never been a piece of art in the past, until recently.

 

 

I am not a collectionner, I don't "collect" Nihonto, I train with it(of course in the best way to conserve it and try my best to not dammage it). Of course, I will not use it right now, I am still learning, and master and myself do not consider myself skillful enough to be able to train with a true Nihonto.

 

Thank you for your information. I am aware of it now. Could you however share the original post which talks about the dammage that bamboo and tatami omote made to Nihonto? Is it some serious dammage or minor dammage like "if we smoke we could get cancer"?

 

Thank you very much Ken!

[cabowen]

 

However, as I said in my previous post, it is a question of mentality. I think that we should make the Nihonto alive instead of putting it eternally in its saya in a corner and take it out only occasionally. I want to train with it so that it can become part of me and is linked to me. A Nihonto is made for use, not for appreciating at the beginning. Japanese didn't fabricate Nihonto for art appreciation, it never was. They were created to defend the land against Mongol, they were used to kill people, to protect family and to fight ennemy with honor, or execute. They have never been a piece of art in the past, until recently.

 

Forgetting the fact that it has been common practice to keep highly regarded swords from harm's way for many hundreds of years, and that frequently the best swords were owned by daimyo and the like who never used them, or owned by temples where they were donated, it would seem that you have indeed found the right sword for your purposes. They have been appreciated for not only their practical aspects but for their beauty as well for quite a long time.

[Jean]

Guys,

 

I have just deleted two posts as moderator, please don't make me suppress a 3rd one. Keep cool.

 

Ruoyu has written:

 

it is a question of mentality

 

No, I should rather say that it is an opinion which, furthermore, is not shared by the majority of NMB members, one of the objective of this Board being to protect Nihonto and study them. Tameshigiirii is certainly not the best way to study Nihonto if not its functionality as a weapon.

 

There is absolutely no need to study Nihonto to learn sword cutting.

[Thierry BERNARD]

There is absolutely no need to study Nihonto to learn sword cutting.

 

and no need to learn sword cutting to study Nihonto! :D

[Stephen]

IMHO use yur Kanehide and dont worry about it.

[Widowmaker]

Thank you for all your answer.

 

I am aware now of the danger. I saw the post of mr.Mariuszk, we talked in private and everything is fine, there is no trouble. I think some of my opinions seemed to be confuse in a way that other people think I tried to convince other that I am right. That was not I intend to do. I think you guy understand me.

 

By the way, I found another thread which talked about this subject too. Many interesting post there by Kunitaro gave me plenty useful information. I think the topic can be locked or solved.

[cabowen]

and no need to learn sword cutting to study Nihonto! :D

 

I would disagree with that comment. I think to thoroughly understand at the deepest of levels, you need to know something about how the sword was used. You also need to know something about Japanese history, culture, religion, aesthetics, the language, the food, metallurgy, etc. The sword didn't develop or exist in a vacuum. The better you understand the context in which it was created, carried, used, made, etc., the deeper you will understand and appreciate it.