isidro305 Posted August 1, 2014 Report Posted August 1, 2014 hi I recent buy this wakizashi nagasa 46cm collector of tadayoshi can help I serch but can find this mei all can see have kuni and this one not, is this a fake or genune tadayoshi Isidro.
cabowen Posted August 1, 2014 Report Posted August 1, 2014 Need a better picture of the signature but my first impression is fake.
isidro305 Posted August 1, 2014 Author Report Posted August 1, 2014 this only I have sword coming from Japan 1
Travis Clarke Posted August 1, 2014 Report Posted August 1, 2014 Hi Isidro, After you receive the sword and you have it in hand, you should post some pictures of the entire nakago, including the nakago jiri and the entire signature. Some close up pictures of the kissaki as well as the boshi. Some overall blade pictures and some close ups of the hamon and jihada. Some clear pictures will help. I'm sure there is a thread on here about photographing nihonto. I'll post a link if I can find it. Take care and good luck with your sword.
Ed Harbulak Posted August 1, 2014 Report Posted August 1, 2014 I'm sorry Isidro, but the mei on your Tadayoshi is most certainly gimei. The easiest way to know is to look at the second character "zen" in Hizen. That is NOT the way the Tadayoshi/Tadahiro school wrote that particular kanji.
Alex A Posted August 2, 2014 Report Posted August 2, 2014 Hi Isidro, agree with Ed. Infact, nothing seems to look right when compared to other examples in Fujishiros, have a look on the net for comparison.
Ed Harbulak Posted August 2, 2014 Report Posted August 2, 2014 Hi Isidoro and Alex, I should have given a more detailed explanation as to why the "zen" kanji in Hizen makes the Tadayoshi mei on Isidoro's blade wrong or gimei. The 8th stroke in "zen", that's the short line just to the left of the far right vertical stroke is actually located to the right, or outside edge, of the far right vertical slope in genuine Tadayoshi/Tadahiro signatures. On Isidoro's blade, that stroke should be on the far right, outside edge of the "zen" kanji if it's a genuine mainline Tadayoshi/Tadahiro signature. Alex, the way the mainline Tadayoshi school wrote "zen" is correctly shown in the middle photo you included below Isidoro's blade. However, the final photograph, if it's of a Tadayoshi mainline smith, is correctly written in Japanese, but wrong compared to the way the Tadayoshi school wrote it. That means the photograph of the third mei, if it's from a mainline Tadayoshi smith is also gimei. Writing Hizen the way it's shown in textbooks is NOT the way the Tadayoshi school wrote it. The "zen" kanji is one of the quickest ways to differentiate between a genuine and gimei Tadayoshi or Tadahiro signature as it's the character that seems to be most often wrong on gimei blades. Of course "zen" can be written correctly the way the Tadayoshi school wrote it and still be gimei, so the entire mei as well as the workmanship of the blade has to be considered. In the case of Isidoro's blade, not only is the "zen" kanji wrong for the school, but the rest of the mei is very poorly written compared to genuine Tadayoshi school signatures.
Alex A Posted August 2, 2014 Report Posted August 2, 2014 Hi Ed, i had a quick look through Fujishiros this afternoon. The zen in the 3rd picture is from page 120, plate 3, Hizen Kuni Junin Fujiwara Tadayoshi.
Ed Harbulak Posted August 2, 2014 Report Posted August 2, 2014 Hi Alex, If you read the English translation in Fujishiro for page 120 of the Japanese text, it says the signature of your last photo is that of Tosa no Kami Tadayoshi who is thought to be the younger brother of the Shodai Tadayoshi. I guess I never noticed his method of writing Hizen before, but of all the Tadayoshi, Tadahiro mei I've seen in for example Roger Robertshaw's book on the School of Tadayoshi, the "zen" kanji has the 8th stroke on the far right rather than where it belongs. I do recall that some of the other smiths in the Tadayoshi school didn't always follow the same writing method as the mainline Tadayoshi and Tadahiro smiths. But, as always, especially when it comes to nihonto, there are exceptions. I guess Tosa no Kami Tadayoshi is one of those exceptions. Anyway, thanks for pointing out the difference.
Alex A Posted August 2, 2014 Report Posted August 2, 2014 Hi Ed, it did catch me out too, one day hopefully, i will come across something in this hobby thats straightforward. :?
mywei Posted August 2, 2014 Report Posted August 2, 2014 definitely looks wonky afaik, Tadayoshi never signed just 'Hizen ju Tadayoshi' without the kuni? for reference http://www.hizento.com/history.htm#SHODAI%20TADAYOSHI
isidro305 Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Posted August 5, 2014 thanks for all comment i receive my waki today the hamon is beautiful my firs blade in nice condition :D i suspect gmei because the price $700 but i don't care gmei or true looks a nice smith skill in mi little experience, was difficult to make this picture i have a canon t4 and 24-105 f4 L IS any comment of what possible school Isidro.
isidro305 Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Posted August 5, 2014 more pict of the koshirae i never see this tsuba, nakago hole 2 big i need change for small
Widowmaker Posted August 5, 2014 Report Posted August 5, 2014 I usually notice the signature in the two following forms: One is "肥前国住人忠吉作" Another is "肥前国忠吉作" But "肥前住忠吉" is the first time.
Darcy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Posted August 9, 2014 There are no Juyo signed in this form by Tadayoshi. Fujishiro marks none either. There are some "Hizen Ju Minamoto Yoshihiro" and Munetsugu but they seem to use the family name after the Ju.
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Hi isidro305,MY research should give you some HOPE... Your "Hizen" character has what I call the HIROSADA [ij]... ....as in "i" for ink (with the sharp point of the chisel pointing upwards and "j" for jolly (minus the usual attached chisel mark as such> "J-". So who is HIROSADA? As he was obviously in the Tadayoshi school signing swords... a STUDENT! Look out for... HIZEN NO KUNI JU FUJIWARA HIROSADA SHERLOCK solves it again. (Smug moment.) ................................................................................ FOOTNOTE: OH and by-the-way... for all Tadayoshi fans.... MASAHIRO (Yoshinobu's son) did not sign the dai-mei's sold at Christies etc... it was the OMI-DAIJO-TADAHIRO (his 1st real son) which makes Roger Robertshaw's Book that everyone is referring to > wrong, sorry. I've kicked a Bees nest there. I shall explain at a later date. Bye!
Ray Singer Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 FOOTNOTE: OH and by-the-way... for all Tadayoshi fans.... MASAHIRO (Yoshinobu's son) did not sign the dai-mei's sold at Christies etc... it was the OMI-DAIJO-TADAHIRO (his 1st real son) which makes [/size]Roger Robertshaw's Book that everyone is referring to > wrong, sorry. I don't understand what you are referring to. Which Masahiro dai-mei pieces at auction and what is this new scholarship based on? Best regards, Ray
paulb Posted October 11, 2015 Report Posted October 11, 2015 Dear Karl Peter I dont know the sword you are referring to. I admire your confidence and I think Roger would acknowledge that as research continues it may be that some of his views published some 15 years ago may prove to be wrong. However he has devoted a large part of his adult life to the study of main line Tadayoshi work so I dont think his work can be discarded lightly. If you are going to make such claims you really do need to support them with evidence. If you do this I am sure no-one would begrudge you your smug moment! I look forward to reading your thoughts Regards Paul
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 12, 2015 Report Posted October 12, 2015 The evidence is on the swords themselves. In THEIR actual writing (characters chiseled) . It seem that 100%... whist 1st Gen. Tadayoshi was still alive... others had to write Tadahiro. Roger shows a Masahiro dai-mei for Tadahiro that does NOT show what I call his Hizen 'lJ' ('l' for lion, 'J' for jolly) which is Masahiro's given writing. plus whilst Masahiro's elders were alive [the Great master Myoju, Adopted father Tadayoshi and real father Yoshinobu]... ...Masahiro's KUNI was a clear 3/2 chisel display in a box... and not one of the three examples shown in the book. Exclusive to the... now later...Omi-Daijo-Tadayoshi (real son of 1st Gen. Tadayoshi)... is the 'diamond' chisel mark above the HIRO-line... (in TADA-HIRO) which looks a bit like this <> and is REAL obvious once it is pointed out. ...and the KUNI [1-box-1/comma crossed moon] belongs to this same progeny who also wrote 'J-' in his HIZEN. I couldn't link the images but... once you know the above information it is real easy to identify the difference. I'm researching a sword signed MUSASHI DAI-JO FUJIWARA (with special water-mark) ... and I'm looking for who signed the JO part of DAI-JO the way it is signed on this actual sword... my closest suspect at the moment is Hiroshige but the actual influences of Umetada Mjoju/Shigeyoshi or even Jo Munetsugu (who taught Tadayoshi before Myoju) are so close I just need to see that exact chisel mark. Anomalies I have seen on this journey solve a few answers to Q's on here. And I can go 'Oh-h-H!' I know who that is! The above research is mine... maybe I should write a book? Funny thing is... until recent... i was sure it was more likely to be Yoshinobu than Masahiro, until i saw a sword dated after Yoshinobu's death... so I went hunting for who was ALIVE... and the Omi's 'diamond' within the HIZEN was highlighted and mentioned by a certain 'Inamura'. He did state that THESE swords are all currently still attributed to 1st Gen Tadayoshi... but appear to be signed by the Omi- (who I'm calling Omi- for clarity). A certain area of interest are 1st Gen. swords with HORIMONO's that are signed by the actual carvers. Woo-hoo... it's hotting up.
paulb Posted October 12, 2015 Report Posted October 12, 2015 Dear KarlPeter Thank you for the clarification. I admire your focus and attention to minute detail all of which are important in trying to support attribution. Please keep us updated with your progress Regards Paul
omidaijo Posted October 12, 2015 Report Posted October 12, 2015 Hi Everyone, Sitting here in LAX airport, bored to tears and rambling on ........... First of all the mei in question is clearly gimei and way off. 200% sure. Don't even go there on a dai-mei. A lot of the gimei kind of look like Tosa signatures, but as I have said before, ever seen two Tosa signatures that are the same? Secondly any talk of dai-mei is pure speculation when it comes to waki-hizen smiths like Hirosada etc, signing for the mainline, and incredibly hard to prove. I am sure they did it, but I kind of gave up going that route as it is impossible to stay on top of it, to research it (a lot of the old scholars were looking at gimei half the time I am sure), and drives you mad trying to work it all out. Father son is a bit easier (eg 3rd for the 2nd, 4th for the 2nd etc) but still a minefield and an area not trod by the NBTHK as far as I know --- ever seen a Tadayoshi sword with recent NBTHK papers saying Dai-mei xxxxx? I do not recall ever seeing a paper saying as much, so the NBTHK don't even go there as far as I know. Eguchi postulates that Tosa no Kami was actually Munetsugu, the head Priest, taking the then famous Tadayoshi name in 1624, forcing Shodai Tadayoshi to take the name Tadahiro. Tosa was unlikely related to Shodai Tadayoshi considering the evolution of the School and the fact the Shodai was orphaned at an early age, and adopted into the forges by the Nabeshima. Maybe Tosa was related, but there are just some things that you can't prove, and you end up beating your head against a wall just to relieve the stress ! The scruffy "Masahiro Dai" mei in my book .... yup, after 16 years I kind of think it is probably gimei.....it sold a long time back and I think it would be unlikely to paper today (mind you, the new NBTHK is unlikely to paper anything questionable these days!).. but not sure at the end of the day. My opinion on a few areas has changed over the years ...... one thing is never say "never" because this School was throwing tons of swords/naginata/yari out every week it seems. Got to ask where they got all the steel from (black ships?? Nagasaki etc?). I managed to pick up a paperd Leaf Yari by the Shodai earlier this year, and a small yari (almost nanone size) by the 9th gen....the latter probably used for killing wild Geijin hamsters. To clarify, I have never seen a diamond chisel stroke in the top of Hiro other than those attributed to the Shodai (and Gimei). ie The Nidai didn't do it at all. Not only that, even when he made a dai-mei for the Shodai he didn't use the diamond......If I could figure out how to easily attach an oshigata, I could show you a Nidai Dai-Mei for the Shodai circa 1632.... Lee?? Now if you really want to go somewhere interesting, go to the early 8th gen days when he was 12 years old and took over the school. That's when a lot of the gimei appeared I am sure --- and from the School itself! I have a sword dated 1819 with a goji mei (failed papers of course). Yoshikawa pinked a sword I have with a Hizen kuni Tadayoshi goji mei, saying "later Hizen School copy of the earlier Shodai" .......his reasoning based on the horimono being too shallow. A word of warning .... there are still fabulous gimei coming out of Japan --- I know I bought a couple in the last year or so that failed papers ! So be careful. Once you sit down with them for a week you can kind of see why they failed, but it takes a while for the penny to drop.... one or two I still don't know why they failed papers after years of looking at them. Ok I will be arrogant and say the NBTHK got it wrong ....... :-) The only way is to line up swords by each master side by side, then see where the sword in question fits.......even then it will be hard because they made so many different pieces, and there are so many fakes out there. So if anybody wants to buy the whole School and more to try this out, let me know!! Armour .....thats the future. No-one worries about gimei or dai-mei... just appreciates the workmanship and beauty. And its easier to mail around the world :-) I will go back to my hole now. Cheers, Roger 5
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 12, 2015 Report Posted October 12, 2015 I'm not speculating... just saying what's on the blade(s). The same 'diamond' chisel mark <> (think of a diamond on a playing card) also appears on blades that are similar-looking/look-like the work of the Omi- (real 1st Gen son) For example: It appears above Tadakuni's 1638 'Harim Daijo' title.... and looks like a massive trademark when compared to normal chisel strokes. As Tadakuni got his title in 1638 when all the other 'greater' suspects are dead (roughly all died around at tightly-dated 1632) it must rule out their hand. ...but the Omi- was still alive :-) Later H'Omi :-)
Alex A Posted October 12, 2015 Report Posted October 12, 2015 Hi Karl, we do need some pictures I know the diamond your talking about, but I'm getting lost. Can you please clarify what it has to do with the mei in question?
paulb Posted October 13, 2015 Report Posted October 13, 2015 Hi Roger Thank you for the detailed post it is always good to hear from you and to gain from your experience. Also glad I am not the only one passing boring hours at airports trawling the board take care Paul
KarlPeterSmith Posted October 13, 2015 Report Posted October 13, 2015 To Alex A... It has nothing to do with the mei in question. Kinda digressed :-) Sorry. ...................................................................................................................................................................... I was just initially defending isidro305's blade and identifying it as another of 1st Gen Tadayoshi Students. There's a huge 15-20 year void... when the progeny like Masanaga(Masahiro) were growing up... ...and OTHER 'older' students were signing for Tadayoshi when his school signed as such. ......................................................................................................................................................................... I was defending a blade that was being dismissed with ref. material that I knew was not right, that's all. As for pictures... me publishing pics over someone else's work would be distasteful... as it's bad enough having to point out amendments... ......................................................................................................................................................................... Digressing again: There's a Kunihiro blade 1583 with Horimono and a BUSHU character (early synonym for the province Musashi) which reappears almost exactly on 1624 'Musashi Daijo Fujiwara' swords... making it by-the-hand of someone who must still-be-alive and be the one who worked on the sword in question... making Umetada Myoju the possible signer of the Kunihiro 'BUSHU' & the early 'Musashi Daijo' titled blades. Tadayoshi did go to Myoju to receive the title from Myoju. That is official. The legendary wandering Sword-Priest Kunihiro died 1614... aged 84 and he was at Umetada Myoju's forge 1596 (same time as 1st Gen Tad)... Think of him as the Gandolf of the forge. A very over-looked presence indeed. Luckily his demise in 1614 rules him out of being a major factor in later blades but the early Tadayoshi swords... hey... his influence... look at the swords and answer... Who's your daddy?
omidaijo Posted October 13, 2015 Report Posted October 13, 2015 Hi All, Photos ? Good gosh... you will be asking for blood next! Can't you use your imagination like the rest of us? ..... someone just email me the easy way to do it please and I will gladly share some photos. Hopefully Lee will post the Nidai Tadahiro dai-mei. Cant seem to insert a photo easily ..... Brian?? The diamond was not used by anyone in the mainline Tadayoshi other than Shodai.... lets get that one straight. Yes Tadakuni used it but he isn't mainline (if you subscribe to the concept that the mainline were only the Tadayoshi, and all others were Waki-Hizen). Now, you could go a stage further because the Shodai Tadahiro mei are often dai-mei (according to Eguchi --- using the Musashi Daijo title off the top of my head) and they had the diamond trade mark. Lets not go there ......for reasons of sanity. "As for pictures... me publishing pics over someone else's work would be distasteful... as it's bad enough having to point out amendments... " Feel free. don't want you feeling so horribly bad and losing sleep over it... :-) And yes, I have often wondered what happened in 1632 as there seems to have been quite a few smiths snuffing it around the same time in the Hizen forge. Fistycuffs in the Kaji, Swords at dawn in OK corral over a geisha, or a jilted lover with a flint and some tinder? Cheers, Roger
Lee Bray Posted October 13, 2015 Report Posted October 13, 2015 Hopefully Lee will post the Nidai Tadahiro dai-mei. 1
Brian Posted October 13, 2015 Report Posted October 13, 2015 Roger, Uploading pics is easy. If they won't upload, they must be huuuuuge! http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/3-how-to-uploadpost-a-pic-or-file-max-widths-sizes-etc/ Looking forward to some pics, and learning more about this confusing school
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