Identification Tsuba

[Shoshinsha]

Hello to all.

I am French and my English is bad. Please excuse me in advance.

I have a signed Tsuba "Shôami" featuring two crests (MON) called : "Maru ni Mokkou" (Flower coignassier in a circle). As I am neophyte on the subject, I would like determine several points and I appeal to your knowledge.

The points I would like to address are:

1 / The manufacturing area of the school Shôami this Tsuba (Aizu - Akita - Edo ....)

2 / The construction period. Between 1600 and 1868 (Edo) is not acceptable for me. I would like a finer dating.

I hope to move forward in this investigation to try to determine which family or clan which it could belong Tsuba (KAMEDA - ISHINO - MAGABUCHI - KAWASHIMA - WADA - YAMAOKA or SATAKE).

I attached pictures.

Here are the features:

Shape, dimensions and weight:

- Basic form "Shinmaru Gata" (Meaning: Round almost perfect).

- Current Overall Dimensions: 82.5 x 81 mm vertical, horizontal 2 mm.

(Originally they were to be closer to 83 mm x 81.5 mm vertical horizontal)

- Thickness: 5.65 mm to 5.7 mm at the edge (or Mimi Rim) and 5.1 mm to 5,2 mm

plate at the "Seppa-dai" and engravings in concentric circles.

(Originally they were to be of 6 mm and 5.5 mm along the plate)

- Dimension "Nakago-ana": 26.4 mm x 7.4 mm

- Current weight: 180 grams. (Certainly to 190 grams originally)

Subject matter of the plate:

- Dark iron plate, well-tempered and polished dark brown patina. (Not brown)

 

I know I set the bar high, but valiant heart nothing is impossible.

In advance thank you to all those who take up the challenge.

[Stephen]

sorry still have not downloaded office

[Gunome]

Neither do I

could you post photo ? (JPG, JPEG, ...)

[Kurikata]

In order to help....

[Shoshinsha]

Bonjour à tous et bonne journée. Pour info j'apporte cette précision destinée à aider dans leurs observations et alayses tous ceux qui seront amenés à me faire part de leurs savoir et connaissances.

J'ai posté deux pièces jointes qui comportent des photographies et du texte . La pièce intitulée "PLANCHE TSUBA" présente le Tsuba à identifier et que je possède. La pièce intitulée "Dossier de comparaison" est un complément à la "PLANCHE TSUBA". Le "Dossier de comparaison" présente le Tsuba en question (Réf 01) avec deux autres Tsuba vraiment identiques et semblant de même facture et provenant peut être du même atelier.

--- Dans l'attente de vos observations, suggestions, analyses et jugements. A tous merci pour vos futures contributions.

[Stephen]

someone want to translate that, I like the tsuba.

[Shoshinsha]

someone want to translate that, I like the tsuba.

Hello and good day. For info I bring this clarification to assist in their observations and alayses all those who will to share their expertise and knowledge to me.

I posted two attachments that contain photographs and text. The piece entitled "BOARD TSUBA" presents the Tsuba to identify and I have. The song called "Folder comparison" is a supplement to the "BOARD TSUBA". The "File Comparison" shows the Tsuba in question (Ref 01) with two other Tsuba really identical and pretend same invoice and may be from the same workshop.

--- Looking forward to your comments, suggestions, analysis and judgments. A thank you all for your future contributions.

[Peter Bleed]

Cher ami,

Vous posez des questions sincères, mais difficiles. Ce style de tsuba est commun et toujours juste appelé "Shoami". Je pense qu'ils étaient très commun. Mais, votre tsuba est en très bon état. crêtes de famille sont également inhabituel. Il ya beaucoup de raisons pour lesquelles une tsuba pourrait avoir crête. Le reliant à une faction ou une activité est difficile.

Peter

[Shoshinsha]

Cher ami,

Vous posez des questions sincères, mais difficiles. Ce style de tsuba est commun et toujours juste appelé "Shoami". Je pense qu'ils étaient très commun. Mais, votre tsuba est en très bon état. crêtes de famille sont également inhabituel. Il ya beaucoup de raisons pour lesquelles une tsuba pourrait avoir crête. Le reliant à une faction ou une activité est difficile.

Peter

 

Hello there. Thank you for your reply.

The Tsuba is "Shôami" of course because it is signed "Shôami". What motivates my research is: 1° / Estimate a fairly accurate date of manufacture. Edo period (1600-1868) is not satisfactory for me. Almost 03 centuries margin when you're 145 years late Edo does not suit me. We must do better.

2° / Determine what school is this Shôami Tsuba (Maybe Aizu Shôami School? ...). Again I think it is feasible ..... If I appeal to this forum because I think there are certainly more expert than me to have a serious opinion on these two points. --- Anyway thank you for your contribution.

--- Bernard.

[Antti]

Somewhat similar tsuba:

 

http://www.ricecracker.com/japanese_swo ... hoami.html

http://www.japanesesword.com/Images/Fit ... _tsuba.htm

[Shoshinsha]

Somewhat similar tsuba:

 

http://www.ricecracker.com/japanese_swo ... hoami.html

http://www.japanesesword.com/Images/Fit ... _tsuba.htm

 

 

Oui je sais tout cela .... et par ailleurs les photos des tsuba du site "japanesesword" figurent dans le dossier de comparaison que j'ai fourni en pièce jointe.. quand à la Tsuba proposée par "ricecracker" je connais aussi ... mais tout cela ne m'apprend rien de plus sur les deux points que j'essaie de résoudre. Merci quand même pour vos efforts et votre intérêt pour la question.

Bernard

[christianmalterre]

Bernard,

 

it´s long ago that i did collect me Shoami Tsuba.

Eitherway i think that those info you did work you out yoursself,plus those infos given by boardmembers here-are corect!

 

Me here(without having the right literature any longer with me) would point both Tsuba to 18th century(so 1700-1800)

Both show "assez" significance,that both are worked in an very close to each other timeframe and atelier.

 

Both do somehow remind me to an Shoami Tsuba i once had(an Bushu Shoami Shigeyoshi)(sorrowly i do not have any picture of this Tsuba kept)...

So mine call-(Ohne "Gewehr/without rifle" )

these are either 2 Aizu Shoami or two Bushu Shoami Tsuba/least very very close to either Shigetsugo or Shigeyoshi.

Note that it´s nearly unpossible so to definitely determine an Tsuba(especially the one here with your´s two Tsuba);which do show workmanship which is typical in all aspect to either the Aizu,the Akita or the Bushu branch!

 

Christian

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I agree with Christian which saves me from writing a similar statement. Both tsuba are Shōami school prices one even clearly says so with the signature "Shōami".

[Stephen]

From what I gleam from his post he doesn't dispute Shoami, just wants to pin point a date other than edo.

Don't know if that can be done.

[Shoshinsha]

From what I gleam from his post he doesn't dispute Shoami, just wants to pin point a date other than edo.

Don't know if that can be done.

 

For Christian, for Shoshin and Stephen C.

Stephen Yes you have understood the purpose of my research. I confirm that these are Tsuba "SHOAMI". It is a certainty acquired permanently. I seek to understand two points: 1 / A manufacturing date more precise than "Edo period" (1600-1868). 2 / The area of this workshop "Shôami school".

 

Christian your comments seem very, very relevant. I take into account very seriously because the track Shigeyoshi seems very promising.

Indeed professional life Shigeyoshi (Shigeyoshi Suzuki said Denbei) of Shôami Akita is perfectly fitting with the Tsuba and "Mon said Maru or Mokkou" for the following reasons:

a) Installation in 1673 on AKITA (KUBOTA SATAKE domain that included since 1623 Kameda domain )

b) Recruited by Satake Yoshizumi daimyo of KUBOTA 1675

c) Permission to use the name "Shôami" in his works in 1676.

Dear Christian this analysis confirms the observations MARKUS SESKO author of "The Japanese-toso Kinko Schools".

All this might even explain why identical Tsuba taken in comparison lack the "Mon said Maru or Mokkou" and are not signed; these were manufactured by Shigeyoshi before 1676 at a time when he had no right to use the word "Shôami" and where it was not yet in service SATAKE.

Of course you can always say that it is coincidence .... but that's a lot of coincidences that fit perfectly in a historic setting to reject .....

I think we're on the right track.

Thank you all.

The debate is not over. Continue your analysis and observations I'm interested. I keep the subject because "Truth is like a fishing net: holes connected together by string" ....

Bernard A

[christianmalterre]

Dear Bernard,

 

i am indeed happy you equally see this "constellation";least me would say very closeness to Shigeyoshi!

me,too i immediately thought on this guy when i saw your´s both tsuba here presented....

 

as already mentioned,i am very sorry i do not longer have this "pointing" needed literature...otherwise it had ben an big pleasure for me so to help you further in your´s quest!

(i but think,and hope,that one other fellow member here on board may jump in,and could give you some further facts and hints )(do thrust on this forum here!-there are many knowledgeable collectors here!)

 

so you say 1650(+-)...

that´s very good indeed!

(even myself,i do confess,had rather put both to 1700,maybe 1750 timeframe...)(but well...great for you! )

 

either way-both Tsuba show great quality!

mine sincere congratulations!(the iron looks very good indeed!)

 

good luck in your´s further quest!

 

Christian

[Soshin]

Hi Bernard A.,

 

Shōami school were located in many different areas and provinces during the Edo Period. Workmanship and stylistic characteristics indicate two provinces Bushū or Aizu. A date range I would use for this tsuba would be around 1770 to 1868.

[Shoshinsha]

Hello . Really thank you to all those who make a contribution to the building.

It is established that the Tsuba is SHOAMI. This is a incontounable certainty.

It appears, after more than a year of self-study on Tsuba (yes!) and very good comments you made ​​on this forum that the Tsuba has undeniable characteristics and at least influences styles: Bushu, Aizu and Akita. I agree completely.

Given the many elements gathered to date, including some thanks to you (Thank you, thank you, thank you!) I maintain my position to manufacture around 1676 on AKITA by Shôami "Denbei" Shigeyoshi for / Satake clan IWAKI. Many points corroborate this position. ---

Anyway I pursuit research and any suggestion confirming or refuting my analysis is always welcome.

I give myself 15 days holiday (It is summer in France) to clear my head and devote to other activities.

I would resume the study of the Tsuba and this forum to 08.15.2014.

Again thank you for all your science and your contributions. A very soon.

Bernard A.