christianmalterre Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Hi Piers, here´s one further(wormhole) for your´s database... actually i am hard puzzeling mineself about it´s authenticity and final quality...(but well-other topic of course)...so just the pictures... Christian 1 Quote
kaigunair Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 a nerikawa tsuba, probably late edo... 1 Quote
Toryu2020 Posted August 1, 2014 Report Posted August 1, 2014 An awesome idea for exploration Piers! No time to photo tsuba at home but will look for examples at the show this weekend... -t 1 Quote
sanjuro Posted August 2, 2014 Report Posted August 2, 2014 So far so good. However, I would like to take this a little further. Some of the examples posted have only one hole in a position at the edge quadrant of the tsuba, some a single hole on the mune quadrant of the tsuba. I wonder what is the purpose of this when the tying of an udenuki no O is done in a specific way that requires two holes in a specific position. An udenuki No O has a specific purpose just as the sayadome also have a specific purpose. A single hole indicates possibly a different purpose. I have added a picture of one of my wakizashi tsuba with a single hole. There would seem to be no stylistic purpose to this one hole, which only leaves a practical reason for its presence. Any Ideas gentlemen?? 1 Quote
Gasam Posted August 3, 2014 Report Posted August 3, 2014 Hi again: Just read yesterday this explanation on 2 different types of holes in tsuba, and seems to agree with earlier post in this thread: http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/sageo.ht ... ll%20holes Very interesting indeed :-) 1 Quote
Kurikata Posted August 3, 2014 Report Posted August 3, 2014 Just check my collection and discocvered an Hizen one.... 1 Quote
Kurikata Posted August 3, 2014 Report Posted August 3, 2014 And are these Undenuki Ana ? Not that sure.... What is the design therefore? 1 Quote
kissakai Posted August 3, 2014 Report Posted August 3, 2014 What a great thread Lovely examples with an interesting link to the description I've followed this from the start and it just got better Thanks Grev UK Quote
sanjuro Posted August 3, 2014 Report Posted August 3, 2014 Bruno. Not Udenuki ana on your tsuba........ Wrong location, too small, two sets. More like a motif of some kind. The theme is the deer at Nara, as you probably know. Not sure what the motif is though. Sayadome possibly but not so confident about that either. Quote
MauroP Posted August 3, 2014 Report Posted August 3, 2014 The kawari mokkō-gata (変り木瓜形) tsuba is mine; the tsuba with udenuki-ana shaped as orbits of a skull is from "The Japanese sword and its fittings, from the collections of the members of the Japanese Sword Society of New York and the Cooper Union Museum", 1966, p. 22. Bye, Mauro 1 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted August 4, 2014 Author Report Posted August 4, 2014 Things are not quite so simple as I had originally thought. To every rule there seems to be an exception! Many thanks for the wonderful variety of examples. Plenty of food for thought. No database here, just an interesting topic for me personally and seemingly so too for the greater membership. Incidentally the two Hitsu ana above look like Mt Fuji. (With two clouds above?) Quote
sanjuro Posted August 4, 2014 Report Posted August 4, 2014 Yes Piers...... I have noticed you keep coming up with these 'not so simple' topics. Then again, nothing in Nihonto is straightforward is it? :D 1 Quote
Viper6924 Posted August 19, 2014 Report Posted August 19, 2014 Was going through some old threads and found this little interesting topic. Sorry to say I don´t visit the "Tosogu" area as much as I should. One area of collecting I def don´t master. But there is still hope :D Me and fellow boardmember Anthony, visited Kagoshima last year. Through contacts we got invited to the dojo of Jigen Ryo. A very old sword school famous for it´s aggressive style of fighting. We even got to train one hour with the current sensei and two of his students. When I say we, I should say Anthony. I managed to slip whilst in the bathroom, the very same morning, and broke my toe. Not my proudest moment... Anyway... Besides the traning (aggressively beating the daylight out of a tree trunk) we also got a tour of the dojos small museum. Amongst many interesting object connected to the Jigen Ryu, was a handfull of tsubas. Everyone showed the same traits. Very simple design. Two small holes punched into the iron. The overall size of the katana-tsubas was small compared to the "normal" tsubas. Through a interpreter the sensei kindly explained te reason for this look. The simple design reflected the economic situation for many of the Satsuma samurai. Having the largest number of samurais in Japan (over 30000) the individual samurai had a rather small stipend compare to other areas in Japan. The two small holes (the same size) was used as a way of control for the sensei. The first rule of Jigen Ryu is "A sword shall not be drawn from it´s scabbard unless it is to attack" The sensei tied a small string of ricepaper to the saya. If the student came back with the string broken, he had to explain the reason why. With the nature of the Jigen Ryu, I guess the student also had to present the head of his opponent The reason for the small size of the tsuba was very clear. A student of Jigen Ryu only needs one strike. Two strikes is inconceivably. Therefore there is no need for a big tsuba to protect the wearer of the sword. Nuff said!!! Here´s a picture of my Satsuma-tsuba Jigen Ryu-style. Looks very much alike the ones in the museum. Jan 5 Quote
Brian Posted August 19, 2014 Report Posted August 19, 2014 Thanks for that very interesting info Jan. Brian Quote
sabi Posted August 20, 2014 Report Posted August 20, 2014 [attachment=0]udenuki-ana.jpg[/attachment]The kawari mokkō-gata (変り木瓜形) tsuba is mine; the tsuba with udenuki-ana shaped as orbits of a skull is from "The Japanese sword and its fittings, from the collections of the members of the Japanese Sword Society of New York and the Cooper Union Museum", 1966, p. 22. Bye, Mauro That skull tsuba is incredible. Any idea what the inscription says? Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted August 26, 2014 Author Report Posted August 26, 2014 きみのため is how it starts so we can guess that it is the start of a possibly famous declaration of loyalty to the overlord. Definitely some sweet examples of holed tsuba here. Quote
pcfarrar Posted August 26, 2014 Report Posted August 26, 2014 I have one signed Kofu ju Yukiyoshi (H12487). The flaming jewels on both sides are solid silver and gold. 1 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted August 26, 2014 Author Report Posted August 26, 2014 Gosh, that design is unusual on a tsuba. Quote
parfaitelumiere Posted September 22, 2020 Report Posted September 22, 2020 This is my example of udenuki no ana in collection. And a simplier design from same smith (myochin ki yoshishige) I have a question, I saw several early tsuba with only one hole on bottom, not two, one seemed to be a kokinko, not sure, but looked old, the other was an iron, but with ganmaku later add, and from what I remember, ganmaku was popular during momoyama period, so it means the tsuba would be older, and it also had one single hole on bottom, maybe it's for same purpose, and then fashion changed, two holes were more efficient than only one?! 3 Quote
Spartancrest Posted September 23, 2020 Report Posted September 23, 2020 I was once told that many sukashi tsuba would not have needed any Udenuki-ana, but at least one design supplied by Christianmalterre above throws some doubt on that theory. I have a few examples that if not strickly designed as Udenuki-ana could certainly serve the same purpose. The Tanto guard with the single hole is probably a 'Water droplet' design in keeping with the round indents on the surface of the leaf. The sukashi 'snow banks?' on the lower side of Fuji on the second guard are positioned well for Udenuki-ana as are the inome and 'monkey tumbler?' on the Kaneiye. The Iron nanako has the more conventional twin holes, the lighting does not show well the two colours of the linings. Has anyone fitted a strap to their mounted guards? I have, and the only way that makes sense is to have the Udenuki-ana on the Mune side of the guard away from the blade edge. Try it, don't assume it. 1 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted September 23, 2020 Author Report Posted September 23, 2020 Just to add these two. The first is signed Yama Kichibei but the condition is not good. The holes look practical and aesthetically pleasing. The second is signed Tadatsugu, (possibly Umetada school of Kyoto). The holes seem to be a design feature to offset the chrysanthemum leaf sukashi. 1 Quote
Spartancrest Posted September 23, 2020 Report Posted September 23, 2020 Piers that leaf sukashi is very, very nice🤩. The second hole is very small, you are probably right about it being a design rather than udenuki-ana. I have a huge 'Temple offering' guard? The two holes are big enough to thread rope and both are the same size, so I would think they too, are a design and not for practical use - unless the guy using it was eight foot tall! [Would love to have seen the whole sword] 1 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted September 23, 2020 Author Report Posted September 23, 2020 Wow, Dale, that one is a whopper. Funky! I am not quite sure what to make of it. Do you have any special reason for hanging a seppa with it? (Never seen that before.) The holes do look exactly the same size. What metal are those side panels, I wonder? Quote
Spartancrest Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 Piers I think the panels [ategane/ume?] are yamagane or shibuichi, they are a bit dirty and probably need a clean but I don't want to spoil the 'rustic' effect. The seppa was just laying about so I stuck it up so it wouldn't get lost 🙃 . What do other people do with their seppa? Stick them away in a box? - are seppa part of tosogu or not?😄 I have a B&W pic of the guard without the seppa - you will notice it was a bargain price - I think everyone was asleep when it went to auction. - It has a Miochin look to it but, also that early Katchushi - looks like the smith didn't get rid of all the slag and liked the 'natural' effect. I like it for its shape - and Captain America said he would buy it, if he ever lost his shield😉. 2 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted September 24, 2020 Author Report Posted September 24, 2020 Why was it so cheap, I wonder? The metal alone should be worth more than that. (Seppa I guess most people keep in a box or drawer somewhere. Not to worry about the side panels. There are some similar ones in a tsuba that I came across recently, but that would be off-topic.) PS The sukashi leaf in the Tadatsugu tsuba above could be either 菊 Kiku (chrysanthemum) or 梶 Kaji (Paper mulberry), which appear to my eyes to be identical in my Mon book. The 'edit' function has since disappeared, so I'm adding this information here. 1 Quote
rkg Posted September 24, 2020 Report Posted September 24, 2020 I've had several of those in the past, but I think this is the only piece I currently have with udenuki ana Best rkg (Richard George) 3 1 Quote
Bugyotsuji Posted September 25, 2020 Author Report Posted September 25, 2020 Now that is a most unusual tsuba, George, in construction and material. Are those solid iron reinforcing ridges? They remind me of a particular Mon. What do you know about it? The gold and silver ring seats do seem to pick up on the sun and moon theme. Quote
rkg Posted September 25, 2020 Report Posted September 25, 2020 14 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said: Now that is a most unusual tsuba, George, in construction and material. Are those solid iron reinforcing ridges? They remind me of a particular Mon. What do you know about it? The gold and silver ring seats do seem to pick up on the sun and moon theme. Piers, I actually can't tell if the ridges are worked from the back or not - the iron part is fitted into a gold "cup". I posted a while back about this piece here: Best, rkg (Richard George) 2 Quote
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 26, 2020 Report Posted September 26, 2020 That leaf design is superb, Piers! I've saved the image to my library 1 Quote
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