Question on my future Nihonto by Noshu Kanehide

[Brian]

Zhang,

Relax, and stop stressing that your sword is low quality.

A smith making an art sword might choose tamahagane that is best suited to showing hada and nie and nioi and all the other hataraki, whilst a smith making a sword to be used (iai or cutting or just something less than $20K) might choose tamahagane that is better for performance and holding an edge and cutting, maybe showing a little less hataraki.

It doesn't mean your sword isn't Nihonto. You did very well for the price. Newly made, that sword should be more than double the price. You got a great deal on something that is a true Japanese sword and made from Tamahagane. Less stress...more enjoying it.

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: I see Lance just wrote the same thing just before me.

[Widowmaker]

Lol, Thank you both lance and Brian.

 

I can sleep in peace now.

 

RIP for me.

[cabowen]

 

However, the only thing which still bothers me in this story is when Chris said that Ninhonto for Iai/tameshigiri are made of lower grade tamahagane. I wonder where is this information from?

 

You aren't likely to find this kind of information disclosed by smiths on the internet. In fact, most will probably not discuss it at all unless you know them personally. I spent a lot of time over the course of the 13 or so years I lived in Japan in the forges of many smiths. This is first hand information.

 

1. The Kanehide nihonto I purchased is a shinsakuto which is initially made for Iai/Tameshigiri use according to some members. (correct me if it is the contrary).

2. Even the seller told me that this nihonto is made from fine tamahagane steel with the traditionnal process, the quality of the Tamahagane used is unknown for this blade unless NBHTK member makes the identification. (please also show me some source information and explain why nihonto for iai/martial art is made of lower grade tamahagane)

3. Swords for martial arts by master craftsmen maybe slightly cheaper than their standard rate as the lower polishing price will be reflected in the overall price. That explains the price of my Nihonto.

 

Thank you in advance for your explanation.

 

Smiths use short cuts and lower quality materials because it saves time and money. There is no reason to use premium=expensive materials and take all the extra steps for a practical blade. It doesn't mean it won't cut well, it just means that it won't have the features/quality valued in art swords. Think of WWII era showa-to, mantetsu-to, or the kazu-uchi-mono of the Sengoku period, Bungo blades, in general: they were practical swords meant for use.

 

Iai practitioners in Japan can't use Chinese blades. Most WWII era blades are on the short side. They have few choices for practical cutting blades. Most people aren't going to use an art sword due to the obvious costs and possibility of damage.

 

Smiths accommodate this need. Many iai-to by top smiths are very nice. I don't think you should be unhappy with your purchase at all....

[Widowmaker]

 

However, the only thing which still bothers me in this story is when Chris said that Ninhonto for Iai/tameshigiri are made of lower grade tamahagane. I wonder where is this information from?

 

You aren't likely to find this kind of information disclosed by smiths on the internet. In fact, most will probably not discuss it at all unless you know them personally. I spent a lot of time over the course of the 13 or so years I lived in Japan in the forges of many smiths. This is first hand information.

 

1. The Kanehide nihonto I purchased is a shinsakuto which is initially made for Iai/Tameshigiri use according to some members. (correct me if it is the contrary).

2. Even the seller told me that this nihonto is made from fine tamahagane steel with the traditionnal process, the quality of the Tamahagane used is unknown for this blade unless NBHTK member makes the identification. (please also show me some source information and explain why nihonto for iai/martial art is made of lower grade tamahagane)

3. Swords for martial arts by master craftsmen maybe slightly cheaper than their standard rate as the lower polishing price will be reflected in the overall price. That explains the price of my Nihonto.

 

Thank you in advance for your explanation.

 

Smiths use short cuts and lower quality materials because it saves time and money. There is no reason to use premium=expensive materials and take all the extra steps for a practical blade. It doesn't mean it won't cut well, it just means that it won't have the features/quality valued in art swords. Think of WWII era showa-to, mantetsu-to, or the kazu-uchi-mono of the Sengoku period, Bungo blades, in general: they were practical swords meant for use.

 

Iai practitioners in Japan can't use Chinese blades. Most WWII era blades are on the short side. They have few choices for practical cutting blades. Most people aren't going to use an art sword due to the obvious costs and possibility of damage.

 

Smiths accommodate this need. Many iai-to by top smiths are very nice. I don't think you should be unhappy with your purchase at all....

 

So to conclude this thread, is my Nihonto made of this low grade tamahagane? I asked other Japanese expert by mail in too, they said that judgeing from this picture, it is difficult to rate the quality of the steel. http://sanmei.com/contents/media/G62433_S3272_PUP1.html. I may need have in hands to take some high definition close pictures to have an idea.

 

Just for info, I visited a the link provided by GrantK, http://www.thejapanesesword.com/iaibatto-shinken. We can see that all their iaito are signed and have bohi. Just a little note.

[cabowen]

Odds are it is not made from the best materials the smith had at his disposal. That doesn't mean it is inferior for the purpose it was made for. It may not have the depth, color, brightness and activity, or finish, of his art swords, but it should function fine.

[GrantK]

Hey Zhang,

i think most of your questions have been already covered, I think the main thing is just to broaden your horizons. You jumped in the deep end wit $4500, definitely not a small amount by any degree and what you came out with... was something really good in my opinion. But still $4500 in terms of nihonto is barely scraping the surface of what you can get, so consider it logically with your car analogy and why some things are just more expensive than others. A Nissan Sentra with drive just as well last just as long as an Infiniti G5 (my sentra is 16 years old ) but it definitely doesn't look like an Infiniti or sound like one . If you choose to use that sword I'm sure it'll cut through tons of stuff and then out live you and get passed on to your children, it's made for use, but that the same time it is a nice work that can be appreciated, you can tell just by looking at the pictures. So unless you're willing to shell out like $25000 for a shinsakuto with extra pepperoni and olives, you've done good for what you have!

 

Hey Trent,

I'm not sure who 'most people on google' are but like I said, you are right when calling alluminum blades iaito, it's just that, there's a much larger use of the word then I think you're getting. However, I'm not sure how much shinsakuto you've sold to get your biases on price but most times they usually sell for around the $4500-$5000 range, (if you look on ebay for shinsakuto there are some dodgy examples which may seem super cheap, but that's a risk I wouldn't be willing to take). As Chris stated too, it's very much personal preference when it comes to age, usually people are over concerned if a samurai actually touched a sword and look past a blades inherent qualities. If you're preference is older that's perfect! But if you've never seen and got to touch an art level shinsakuto then you should make plans, it may just blow you out of the water! But like most things experience it before you start judging, and this is a collectors hobby right, we're not all sales people .

[bobtail44]

Hey Trent,

I'm not sure who 'most people on google' are but like I said, you are right when calling alluminum blades iaito, it's just that, there's a much larger use of the word then I think you're getting. However, I'm not sure how much shinsakuto you've sold to get your biases on price but most times they usually sell for around the $4500-$5000 range, (if you look on ebay for shinsakuto there are some dodgy examples which may seem super cheap, but that's a risk I wouldn't be willing to take). As Chris stated too, it's very much personal preference when it comes to age, usually people are over concerned if a samurai actually touched a sword and look past a blades inherent qualities. If you're preference is older that's perfect! But if you've never seen and got to touch an art level shinsakuto then you should make plans, it may just blow you out of the water! But like most things experience it before you start judging, and this is a collectors hobby right, we're not all sales people .

 

Yeah, I have learned a lot more about the technical use of the word from this thread. My definitions were just what I had heard it was in the past. I Googled the word and meanings and it confirmed what I thought was right. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it seems like a confusing word to use. Thanks for the insight

 

I haven't sold or bought any shinsakuto myself. I nearly bought one papered by the nbthk that went up for sale last year. The smith was a national treasure who died a few(less than 30) years back. I forget his name There seemed to be very little interest and I didn't particularly like it but it only sold for around $2-3000. Since then I have notice probably around 10 sell and I have compared the sale cost of some to the return value. Many were easily below 50%. I'd provide links like a usually do but I haven't bothered to look at any lately because it isn't a field that im interested in. Plus I have a lot of hobbies and expenses at the moment so what I buy must at least retain its value. That is just my own personal rules for it though otherwise it becomes a black hole of spending I don't mean to say that everyone else is wrong

 

I'd love for anyone in Western Australia to show me some modern blades that are of high quality and it would be great if it blew me out of the water id go and look at any nihonto to be honest :D

 

I think that I need to spend time with a smith and see the process first hand because to me modern blades just seem like reproductions. It doesn't matter how perfectly forged they are compared to older blades.

I mean when someone forged a blade in the 1500's for example they did that with a whole other perspective that can never be reproduced. Some blades were obviously produced purely for commercial reasons, but some carried far more meaning than any weapon will ever carry today. Try to find a shinsakuto with a gold inlaid cutting test that took one or more peoples lives straight after it was forged and presented.

Its like producing a lab diamond, no matter how perfect it is, it was still produced in a laboratory not deep down inside the earth with incredible heat and pressure as a product of nature.

 

Trent S

[bobtail44]

 

 

 

For $15000 dollars US and up you can get nbthk Juyo level swords http://www.aoijapan.com/japanesesword/masterpiece not to mention that you can just buy the chinese swords with a core of some sought of spring steel with a harder steel over it. That sword will never break and would snap long after a traditional sword.

My point is that for those ridiculous prices you could have a perfect cutting tool from china as well as an artsword on your shelf if you are outside Japan.

 

There are a good many people, thankfully, that value and appreciate modern made blades. Most of them are as good, if not better, than most older swords one is likely to come across. There are many that will in time be Juyo as well. There is no logical reason to discriminate based on age: good swords have been made in all periods and continue to be made. One may prefer an older sword but that is simply personal preference that often times reflects nothing more than a personal bias for age, romance, and other factors that are not intrinsic to the blade, but qualities in the mind of the buyer.

 

As far as logic goes, Modern swords will never have a cutting test. They also won't have battle scars. They also won't have ever been used to kill anyone. Plus they will never have been attributed to anyone or anything historical.

Buying a story is often as important as buying the item itself. If you buy a shinsakuto you are buying an item made for commercial reasons. It may be good and a faithful reproduction but its still just a blank imo.

 

Another very important point that ive made before is that I have never ever seen a modern sword, even from a "national treasure" level modern smith resell for even a third to half of what it was bought for new.

 

 

I don't think you have seen many modern swords resold if that is your experience. While I would agree that ordering a newly made sword and then turning around and selling it is usually a losing venture, in my experience ordering newly made blades, they usually resell for around 75% of what they cost to order. You can call that 25% the cost of ordering to your personal specifications, much like anything made to order. Most people find considerable value in taking part in a creative process which creates something of beauty, with luck, to be passed along for posterity.

 

I answered this in Grants reply.

 

For me if im not going to at least get my money back then it isn't a very good business decision.

 

 

You are confusing collecting with investing. Most collecting isn't based on logic or profit/loss and has little in common with most business decision making.

 

In my situation I have to combine both. Between hunting/shooting, 4wding, dirt bike racing, wakeboarding/skiing, travelling the world etc I can't afford to spend the money that I have allocated to nihonto without generating profit when I sell one or getting my money back without a loss to buy a new one. I'm not saying whats right or wrong just my own logic.

 

Also I read your other post and I would really like to go to Japan to see smiths make shinsakuto first hand and hopefully change/evolve my perception.

[cabowen]

As far as logic goes, Modern swords will never have a cutting test. They also won't have battle scars. They also won't have ever been used to kill anyone. Plus they will never have been attributed to anyone or anything historical.

Buying a story is often as important as buying the item itself. If you buy a shinsakuto you are buying an item made for commercial reasons. It may be good and a faithful reproduction but its still just a blank imo.

 

Shinsakuto are made for arts sake, not for commercial reasons.

 

Clearly the romance is a major part of the attraction for you. For many others, a fine blade is an end in itself.

 

As for killing, etc., most swords post the Sengoku period have probably never killed anyone, nor been tested, nor owned by anyone famous. But fantasy is free I suppose. To each his own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another very important point that ive made before is that I have never ever seen a modern sword, even from a "national treasure" level modern smith resell for even a third to half of what it was bought for new.

 

Look into the work of Takahashi Sadatsugu, Miyairi Akihira, two early Ningen Kokuho. If you can find a blade for sale today, it will be priced higher in most cases than when it was ordered.

 

 

 

I don't think you have seen many modern swords resold if that is your experience. While I would agree that ordering a newly made sword and then turning around and selling it is usually a losing venture, in my experience ordering newly made blades, they usually resell for around 75% of what they cost to order. You can call that 25% the cost of ordering to your personal specifications, much like anything made to order. Most people find considerable value in taking part in a creative process which creates something of beauty, with luck, to be passed along for posterity.

 

I answered this in Grants reply.

 

You mention:

 

I nearly bought one papered by the nbthk that went up for sale last year. The smith was a national treasure who died a few(less than 30) years back. I forget his name There seemed to be very little interest and I didn't particularly like it but it only sold for around $2-3000.

 

I have no doubt there is more to the story as any full length blade by any national treasure smith with modern NBTHK papers in an open market will be priced at least 10 times that amount and there will be plenty of takers. My guess is the sword was fake with older NBTHK papers, or a different paper, or you have maybe jumbled the facts a bit. If you can post a link, I have no doubt that we will find the truth to be a bit different...

 

10 blades isn't a very big sample to reach any meaningful conclusions. I have explained the premium one usually pays for ordering a new sword and why an off the rack shinsakuto sells for less than one custom ordered. Simple solution if profit/loss is an issue: don't order, buy off the rack. One can just as easily lose money buying and selling old sword as well. There are no guarantees any collectible will hold value or appreciate over any set term. Lots of people lost lots of money buying swords in the late 1980's and selling in the 1990's. Prices are still less than during the boom years and may never recover in our lifetimes.

[Widowmaker]

I do agree with Chris that 2-3000$ for a National treasure smith's work is too good to be true. Maybe the smith's name could help us if you do remember him.

 

By the way, what does An important intangible cultural asset of Seki and Gifu pref mean when we attribute this title to a smith?

[cabowen]

I do agree with Chris that 2-3000$ for a National treasure smith's work is too good to be true. Maybe the smith's name could help us if you do remember him.

 

By the way, what does An important intangible cultural asset of Seki and Gifu pref mean when we attribute this title to a smith?

 

 

Each prefecture can designate traditional artists "intangible cultural assets". It is a bit like a Ningen Kokuho but on a local, rather than national, basis.

[GrantK]

The description on the page you purchased from has the exact reasons haha

 

"After the World War II reconstruction of Japan, he continuously had won numerous prizes starting from 1955 in the contemporary Japanese Sword Fine arts Contests held by the Japanese Swords Preservation Society (NBTHK) such as "Doryoku Award" 3 times, "Nyusen Award" 8 times and got an honor of making swords for the Emperor and Empress Showa in 1957, finally awarded with an important intangible cultural asset of Seki city in 1976 and next year further awarded with one of Gifu prefecture in 1977."

 

But I believe it's awarded to artists who work in specific regions as it makes sense as he is a Seki smith- but usually for their accomplishments as a sort of lifetime achievement award. I'm not sure what the specifics are about actually qualifying though.

 

EDIT - oh it was already answered by Chris

[bobtail44]

I do agree with Chris that 2-3000$ for a National treasure smith's work is too good to be true. Maybe the smith's name could help us if you do remember him.

 

By the way, what does An important intangible cultural asset of Seki and Gifu pref mean when we attribute this title to a smith?

 

That is what it went for on ebay. I don't care enough to lie, im just enjoying the conversation. Also since the nbthk papers had a photo of the tang im sure they were recent enough papers to know who it was.

 

When I was reading through Komojos feedback a year or so ago I noticed someone bought a national treasure sword off him for a low price as well.

The auction had an image of him as a bald old man but I would have no chance remembering the name of the smith. Next time I see one ill post it on the site after it ends and see what it went for.

There was one on ebay like 3 months ago that was by some important prize winner and he couldn't sell it for 3k so it dropped down to 2.3k before he removed it from the site. Just go to the places dealers get their swords from, its not hard to find with a bit of research. I wish that I could read Japanese fluently, id make a killing selling stuff with low margins so more people could get hold of it cheaper and everyone could have a great collection.

 

The best place to buy average swords from 2-7k is from auctions, collectors and sometimes dealers if they will negotiate. I'll be going to a dealer next year when I want to negotiate for my first Juyo sword.

 

 

Trent S

[Brian]

Ok, I'm almost scared to discover what this thread will look like when I wake up tomorrow, and how much point-for-point debating will have gone on. So how about we just call this one done and dusted?

 

Brian