Hizen no Kuni ju Yamato Daijo Fujiwara Kanehiro...Assesment

[harvg]

The mei on this recently acquired Katana has already been translated, by the members here, to : Hizen no Kuni ju Yamato Daijo Fujiwara Kanehiro.

Now the bigger question....does the sword match the signature. Here are some pics, to hopefully aid in judging......

 

Thanks in advance for any help/info!

 

 

harvg

 

 

 

[harvg]

"Bueller? ...Bueller? ...Bueller?" ....."Anyone? Anyone?"

 

harvg

[Bazza]

Honestly, this needs to be properly cleaned and held in the hand by "someone who knows" - like at a Shinsa. I have found that photographs are next to useless in judging a blade. Having said that, with the available images and my miserable knowledge set, I would say this is a gimei. From my exposure to Hizento this is not one. The yasurime are wrong (should be kiri), the nakago jiri is wrong (should be iriyamagata), and the mei is far too "chippy".

 

BaZZa.

[harvg]

 

Found a couple examples of Hizen nakago, that are very close to my example ....thoughts?

 

harvg

[hxv]

Harvg,

 

Gimei, IMHO. A quick search on the web gives me this sword, http://www.japaneseswordsocietyofcanada ... cs.html#3., by the same smith and papered. Can you compare/contrast your sword with this papered sword (and therein lies the answer)?

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[Jim P]

Hi harvg, I am with Bazza/Hoanh on this one

[harvg]

Well at least we have some discussion now, I was starting to think everyone lost their opinions....

Of course this sword may be gimei.... Aren't they all....lol. I have forwarded a pic of the nakago to an expert in Hizento, and while he said he will research more thoroughly soon....he thought the mei looked good. Will keep you all updated, and of course any more info/opinions are always welcome.

 

Harvg

[Bazza]

Honestly, this needs to be properly cleaned and held in the hand by "someone who knows" - like at a Shinsa. I have found that photographs are next to useless in judging a blade. Having said that, with the available images and my miserable knowledge set, I would say this is a gimei. From my exposure to Hizento this is not one. The yasurime are wrong (should be kiri), the nakago jiri is wrong (should be iriyamagata), and the mei is far too "chippy".

 

BaZZa.

A bity of humble pie is good for the soul!!! As I'm not so familiar with waki Hizento I should have added the caveat in the above "For mainline Tadayoshi" with regard to the yasurime.

 

BaZZa.

[Brian]

Well, going by the mei cutting alone..I would have said gimei. The strokes look like they were cut with a polearm. Rough, thick and not fluid.

But that is purely based on gut feel, and is not even an educated opinion.

If your expert is Roger, I would be very interested to hear what he has to say on it.

 

Brian

[harvg]

Hi Brian, my "expert" stated that KaneHiro never really stuck to the traditional Hizento style anyways, so I look forward to hearing his feedback when he has time to do a more thorough analysis. Out of respect, I will hold back his name until he has the time to give a more informed opinion...but of course I am buoyed by his initial impression so far.

 

Harvg

[hxv]

Harvg,

 

IMHO, a simple gimei/shoshin answer does not enrich one's knowledge, but knowing the path to the answer is immeasureably helpful. Independent of your Hizento expert, let's explore one path. Starting with the papered sword which link I posted, can you list similarities and differences your see, based on the nakago, with your own sword? After you make a list, we can take the next step.

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[harvg]

Hi Hoanh, similarities of the link you posted: the shape of the nakago is the same (same curve and taper), there is no pic of the point in your example, but I have found multiple Hizento examples with the same offset straight point. The yasurime on yours is straight, as opposed to mine being angled towards the blade, but again I have found multiple Hizento blades with the same yasurime as mine. With regards to the kanji of the Mei, I am very intrigued by the "Kane" kanji. While my sword has a larger arced radical, in the Kane kanji, overall it's the same variation of the Kane character as the papered one you link to. I personally have yet to find another "Kane" smith, that uses this variation.

 

Harvg

[hxv]

Harvg,

 

That's a good start, with the similarities & differences you compiled. Here are some of my observations:

 

1. As Bazza and Brian already mentioned, the way the kanji are chiseled are so different. IMHO, they cannot be chiseled by the same hands. I don't means just the Kane kanji. All of them are chiseled very differently.

2. The papered sword is signed tachi mei, and your sword is signed katana mei. I assume both swords are katana length.

3. The mekugi ana of the papered sword touches the bottom right of the Kuni kanji, whereas the mekugi ana on your sword is entirely above the Kuni kanji.

4. The mei on the papered sword does not have the Ju kanji, whereas yours does.

 

Points 1 through 4 above are very important, make-or-break differences, not minor nitpicking issues. It's important to also realize that while you can find different yasurime and different nakago jiri on Hizento by different Hizen smiths, each smith has a specific and consistent way for yasurime, nakago jiri, mei placement relative to the mekugi ana, and mei chisel and syntax that don't change that drastically over time. On the mei syntax, unless at some point, they receive a new title or move to a different province, the mei syntax tends to remain unchanged over the years.

 

The goals of my posts are: 1. to give you a little bit of info and some possible questions to ask your Hizento expert when he arrives at an opinion, and 2. to form your own opinion. I hope you receive them as a constructive and educational dialog. Happy collecting!

 

Regards,

Hoanh

[harvg]

Thank you Hoanh for the insight. The biggest problem is that there is not multiple papered references for this smith for comparisons, as this papered tachi is the only one I have seen. This smith was active for 15 years, did he personally chisel all his sword? Hawley lists his Mei as having 13 kanji...the papered tachi has 11, mine has 12. The extra kanji would, if Mei is legit, explain the difference in the mekugi Ana placement.

Just a thought.....if my sword is legit (and I realize that is a big if) and it was the only papered example.....would everyone be saying that the tachi is Gimei?

 

Harvg

 

P.S.

My opinions really are just from my observations, I really have no idea what I'm talking about!

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Harvg ,

there are oshigata of ubu Yamato daijo Kanehiro nakagos in Kanzan Oshigata and Hizento Shiko .

Both are signed tachimei . The chances of a genuine Hizen daito being signed katana mei is pretty slim although they do exist.

Both tangs end in kuri jiri . Your nakago ending is wrong .

Hizen mei are in my experience beautifully cut . In my subjective view yours isn't

One is signed Hizen kuni ju and the other Hizen kuni Yamato ( ie one has ju in the mei the other doesnt )

I havent attempted to compare the way the characters are cut but the Kane looks way off to me

Sorry but my conclusion is that it is Gimei

.

Ian Brooks

[KarlPeterSmith]

Hey harvg,

 

You were close above in #4 with your examples by Masahiro... and Hirosada.

 

as the sword in question to me looks to be by signed by YOSHISADA who is HIROSADA's elder brother... and both are sons of KANEHIRO.

 

YOSHISADA's son ISE YOSHIHIRO opened his own school in 1652 and was pupil of Tadayoshi and did work for Nidai Tadahiro.

 

Best Regards

Karl - Hizen Code.

[Brian]

4 Years later??