Very large tsuba

[peterd]

I bought this more as a curio. size 85mm x 93mm, weight 392 grams (13.8 ounces).

Seems to be made by a tsuba maker and would mount, but is it a tsuba??

Pete

[Alex A]

Hi Pete, looks like a modern chinese cast tsuba to me.

[kaigunair]

size 85mm x 93mm, weight 392 grams (13.8 ounces).

Large indeed, but there are even bigger/heavier examples out there.

 

Seems to be made by a tsuba maker and would mount, but is it a tsuba??

depends on who you ask. there are also two different questions/statements here, 1) was it made by a "tsuba maker"? and 2) is it a "tsuba"?.

 

Seems like it is possibly of Japanese origin, but the Chinese stuff has been getting pretty lively and interesting. Would be late late late period if Japanese, I'm thinking possibly modern actually.

 

If genuine, it would fall into the curio/art piece (I have such an example) which some purists don't consider a "real tsuba". Similar arguments made for late soft metal works in general. Doesn't mean the nice examples are commanding high prices at auction (due to broader appeal IMO).

 

I guess I'm just not sure if this one is completely kosher. Does seem nicer than the ebay fakes, but something seems alittle...off....

[John A Stuart]

I would say a decorative object. Nobukatsu?? 玉籠堂信勝 I don't know what the first three kanji mean? John

[peterd]

Could it be Nobukatsu, Haynes h.07085.0?

John, gyokuryuken is close although last kanji is wrong.

[Curran]

Concur with Junichi: not sure this one is kosher. Not sure it is not kosher.

 

When that large, they tend to be either Muromachi or late-late Edo-Meiji.

When that large and heavy, almost definitely on the Meiji side of things.

 

Attached is an image of a ko-kinko I have just under 10cm.

Earlier this year I sold a ko-katchushi to a dealer that was 10.5cm.

Still, neither is close to 13.8 oz.. Only thing I have close to that is a mixed metal Nambokuchu tachi tsuba that is 1cm thick. Even that is only 13.5oz?

[Soshin]

Hi Curran,

 

Nice tsuba. Keep up the good work. :D

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

From my point of view:

Does this objet is a tsuba? considering, the shape, the size, the nakago ana, I would say yes.

Does it was make to be mount, hum... not sure !

Is it a moderne cast tsuba ? Not sure. The seppa dai is well done and the mei well chiseled, so I would tend to say Japanese, but very late.

 

Regarding the size, this (iron) tsuba is 11.6cm

 

Sébastien

[Bazza]

What on earth are the shapes of the sukashi??? Blobs of protoplasm????!!!! And some of the small holes are too far apart to be undenukiana...

 

BaZZa

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

it is Snowflake with bamboo

[Bazza]

Thank you Sebastien. Snowflakes, well I never!!!

 

We are getting away from the OP topic, but snowflakes goes someway to answering shapes on a "mystery tsuba" I have that I've been going to present to the Board. I need to take some decent photos - watch this space, though it will take me a couple of days or so. On second thoughts, I'll post it under a new topic.

 

BaZZa.

[Geraint]

Have a look at this thread, viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19206 where similar tsuba were discussed, (That is, similar to the original tsuba in this thread.)

 

All the best.

[Alex A]

I hope im wrong, but the tsuba in question looks like it was made yesterday. It looks new, wheres the ware? and patina? (natural patina). The reverse of the seppa die especially, stands out to me as a modern attempt at an aged patina.

[Soshin]

Hi Alex A.,

 

I think your right more then a few things fishy with this tsuba. Very similar tsuba to the one that is the topic of this post has been discussed before as Geraint has noted. In my opinion posting tsuba like this here for discussion is a bit like posting a modern iaito for discussion in the Nihonto forum.

[peterd]

More Photos

[Stephen]

David said

In my opinion posting tsuba like this here for discussion is a bit like posting a modern iaito for discussion in the Nihonto forum.

 

I agree 100% but looks like its still going on.

[Soshin]

More Photos

 

 

Hi Peter D.,

 

The additional photos does a great job of confirming my suspicion that your "tsuba" is a modern piece of decorative art. The surface also seems a bit over done like someone wanted to antique the surface by purposefully removing what looks like paint of different colors.

 

Hi Stephen,

 

Don't worry I feel that two wrongs don't make a right. I will not be posting photos of my modern iaito in the Nihonto forum and asking everyone if the hada is muji.

[Jorgensen]

This is a Bakamatsu Tsuba and is original and seems like a nice Tsuba in this catergori. Its from Meiji period.

 

You can try to google bakamatsu tsuba.

[Soshin]

Hi Jorgensen,

 

Here the definition of Japanese term Bakumatsu from wikipedia.

Bakumatsu (幕末 bakumatsu, "Late Tokugawa Shogunate", literally "end of the curtain") refers to the final years of the Edo period when the Tokugawa shogunate ended. Between 1853 and 1867 Japan ended its isolationist foreign policy known as sakoku and changed from a feudal shogunate to the Meiji government. The major ideological-political divide during this period was between the pro-imperial nationalists called ishin shishi and the shogunate forces, which included the elite shinsengumi swordsmen.

Notice nothing about tsuba in the definition. The only place I ever came across the the term "Bakumatsu tsuba" is western auction catalogues for Meiji Period tsuba that were intended for export to the west via docks of Yokohama. Is this a "Bakumatsu tsuba": http://www.tsubaotaku.com/#!Edo-Tsh-Tsuba-/zoom/ck77/i01lzv? It likely dates from the Bakumatsu time period but was not intended for export to the west and is very functional as a tsuba. I am still sticking with my original opinion the tsuba that is the topic is not Meiji Period but is likely Showa Period or later.

[Alex A]

Looks familiar. Tsuba page

http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/shop.php

[Geraint]

Looks like our original poster decided to move it on, he would be quite close to the Lanes. Have to say that at that price I would certainly rather be the seller than the buyer.

[Alex A]

Never been able to fathom out how the Lanes get to some of those prices

[peterd]

Hi All,

 

This is my Tsuba. I sold it to a dealer not The Lanes Armoury and not for anything close to that price.

 

However interesting write up by The Lanes after the slating it got here.

 

Regards Pete

[christianmalterre]

?(IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII)

Sorry!

your´s dealer very certainly must be THE(!) VERY(!) expert!-Not?

 

Hares Piss!!!!!!!!!!

 

Christian

[Kronos]

Never been able to fathom out how the Lanes get to some of those prices

 

I've never been able to fathom how they and many others manage to sell anything with the prices listed. Not to beat on the Lanes

I'll give another example. In the summer I went to a militaria fair which was mainly old pistols and european swords, however there were dealers that had a few Nihonto and sold them regularly. The prices were plucked completely out of the sky and I can only imagine it's due to their lack of knowledge or the majority of their customers having more money than sense and feeling like adding a "samurai sword" to their collection. The item that stands out was an unpapered shinto Waki by a decent but not spectacular smith (the smith escapes me but I believe he was 60 points in Hawley's, wazomono etc). It was priced at close to £7000, albeit in nice Koshirae. I thought this was extortionate so looked up the smith when I got home to find a nicer papered Katana by the same Smith on Aoi Art for ¥650,000 in Shirasaya. Like I said the koshirae was quite nice but still nothing compared to the price tag.

 

Is this just a British thing or are Nihonto and fittings dramatically overpriced by general antique dealers in this way in the rest of the world?

[Soshin]

Is this just a British thing or are Nihonto and fittings dramatically overpriced by general antique dealers in this way in the rest of the world?

 

Hi James C.,

 

It might be a British thing. My customers from the UK have openly complained about the pricing of nihonto and tosogu by many of British antique dealers. If is often cheaper to buy from me at a reasonable price and pay the import tax from the USA then it is to buy from any of the antique dealers in the UK that has nihonto or tosogu. I am so happy to fill the void due to their ignorance the above tsuba is a perfect example. :lol:

[Alex A]

Hi Pete, your right, very interesting write up by the Lanes indeed. To me, the holes in this tsuba (ive circled them) are from casting "Gas porosity", the Lanes describe the tsuba as "Chisseled on a shinchu plate" . The Lanes also describe the tsuba as a Superb "SHAKUDO" kinko tsuba, is this appropriate?

[Soshin]

Hi Alex.,

 

You did a good job of pointing out some of the very clear problems (signs of casting) with this tsuba. I also pointed out other problems on the front side when this tsuba was first posted. Was looking at the asking price for this tsuba on the website at $2,957.50 USD this is delusional.

[Alex A]

It doesnt surprise me. When i started collecting i bought my first sword from these guys. Whilst on the phone i asked the guy did the sword have any flaws whatsoever ?(he had the sword in hand), he seemed a real gent, told me the sword was flawless. The sword arrived two days later, it had a small opening. I suppose some dealers will occasionally bend the truth to keep the cash flowing in.