Ken-Hawaii Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 I own a rather nice ken tanto in shirasaya, but am looking for more information. Obviously, this type of tanto evolved from the old chokuto shape, but when? And why? I really can't find any info on anyone ever using a ken tanto in battle, & most references kind of pass the buck by saying that they were often made specifically to use as offerings to temples. So why did many top-notch smiths in Koto, Shinshinto, Gendai eras make ken in the first place? Does the shape itself have some religious significance that I'm missing? Ken
Jon MB Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Doesn't it represent the sword that cuts through ignorance? For example see link describing Fudo Myo-o, http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/fudo.html Jon MB
Jon MB Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 " Dainichi Buddha (Sanskrit = Vairocana or Maha Vairocana) represents the center (zenith) among Japan's esoteric sects. Esoteric Buddhism (Jp. = Mikkyō 密教) is another term for Vajrayana (Tantric) Buddhism, one of the three main schools of Buddhism in Asia, most widely practiced today in Tibet. The other two forms are Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism. Mahayana is the mainstream in Japan, but the country's Shingon and Tendai sects are still strongholds of esoteric traditions, especially the Shingon sect." "Fudō Myō-ō is the central deity in all Myō-ō groupings, and in artwork is positioned in the center. Fudō is a personification of Dainichi Nyorai, and the best known of the Myō-ō, who are venerated especially by the Shingon sect of Japanese Esoteric Buddhism (Mikkyō 密教). Fudō converts anger into salvation; has furious, glaring face, as Fudō seeks to frighten people into accepting the teachings of Dainichi Buddha; carries “kurikara” or devil-subduing sword in right hand (representing wisdom cutting through ignorance); holds rope in left hand (to catch and bind up demons); often has third eye in forehead (all-seeing); often seated or standing on rock (because Fudō is “immovable” in his faith). Fudō is also worshipped as a deity who can bring monetary fortune." Jon MB
Ken-Hawaii Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 But my ken doesn't have any horimono on it at all. I could obviously use it as a weapon, but only as a rather desperate last resort. But it's in great shape, even if it wouldn't be suitable for a temple. So why did the basic chokuto shape continue in a tanto form? Ken
Jon MB Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Hi Ken, isn't the the ken a symbol, more than a combat tool, horimono or no horimono? Since tanto make good gifts and are sometimes considered to be amulets of sorts, what better than a tanto with a shape associated with religious tradition.... Others will have more information on this I'm sure Jon MB
Geraint Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Hi Ken. My understanding is that in almost all the sources chokuto is used as a term referring to straight, single edged swords and that tsurugi or ken is reserved for double edged blades. Beyond the basics there ares some hints on this page of a sword from Ed's site, http://yakiba.com/Ken_MichiYuki.htm and the link, that suggest them as talismanic protection for the home. I am failry sure that some were made for the Western market, or at least mounted for that purpose, at the end of the 19th century. Another reference from Rick Stein's site suggest that yari tanto were worn as yoroi doshi, as some of these are ryo shinogi perhaps there was a similar reason to carry a ken mounted as a tanto. I am sure that others will chime in here but I enjoyed your ken so allow me to add a shot of mine. All the best.
Ken-Hawaii Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 Very nice, Geraint. Thanks for sharing. It was actually my 20-year-old granddaughter who asked the question while we were with our mentor last week. He & I just looked at each other, and we realized that neither of us had a clue how the ken tanto, or even longer blades, had evolved from Heian times. Whether they were originally Japanese, Chinese, or Korean to start with isn't as important to me as is why they continued to be made for many hundreds of years with no obvious use as a weapon. I really doubt that they could be used as yoroi-doshi, Geraint, mostly because those weapons were more like spikes to slide between the armor plates of yoroi. The ken's much-wider shape and point configuration wouldn't work very well in my opinion. Ken
Geraint Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 I really doubt that they could be used as yoroi-doshi, Geraint, mostly because those weapons were more like spikes to slide between the armor plates of yoroi. The ken's much-wider shape and point configuration wouldn't work very well in my opinion. Yes, it's true that most are a little slim for the purpose, I was trying the idea out for size but even if the suggestion regarding yari used in this way is the case most of them have a good deal more rigidity than the average ken. So I guess we are back to the talismanic aspect. All the best.
cabowen Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 From what I have heard, they were basically religious symbols. You see many early examples in the Yamato tradition from smiths with temple affiliations. They have littlel in common with choku-to. They weren't meant for use.
Ken-Hawaii Posted July 11, 2014 Author Report Posted July 11, 2014 So if I understand what you're saying, Chris, the ken tanto just sprung up from nowhere with its rather unique shape & lack of usability as a weapon, right...? And it's tied in with religion in temples how? Ken
cabowen Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 So if I understand what you're saying, Chris, the ken tanto just sprung up from nowhere with its rather unique shape & lack of usability as a weapon, right...? And it's tied in with religion in temples how? Ken I don't think I said it sprung up from nowhere, I said I have been told it has a religious significance....I would think it is tied in as follows: That's Fudo Myo.....the hard to move buddhist deity that likes to tote a ken...Buddhists hang out in temples, one of their deities totes a ken, ergo....
Baka Gaijin Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Hi Ken, If you check out Naritasan Shinshoji Temple in Narita City, Chiba Ken, you will discover it is packed full of Ken, Ken. Hundreds of them in the gardens standing sentinel and on the various Statues of Fudo no Myo-o that are to be found there. I have a votive Ema board, which is dated to 1890, which depicts two Ken, Ken. Also check out Kurikara with John Maki Evans (Who seriously studied esoteric practices for a number of years in Japan): http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yGIB ... gy&f=false Cheers
Ken-Hawaii Posted July 11, 2014 Author Report Posted July 11, 2014 Very cool, Malcolm! Thanks for that info! Ken
Baka Gaijin Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 No Problem Ken, Do you see the size of the Ken in picture four by comparison to the staircase which is just beside it. It's quite idyllic, turn 90 degrees left and there is a pond full of Carp and Turtles with a trickling fountain. Bring back some memories of Japan???
Jon MB Posted July 11, 2014 Report Posted July 11, 2014 Notice the grip of each ken in the pictures is made up of a vajra, or thunderbolt. Short ken with these grips are still sometimes used in demon subduing rituals in Mongolia and Tibet. Ritual bells with vajra handles are very common in temples there too. Here is a short article about vajra in Japan, Kongo Vajra. http://www.kyohaku.go.jp/eng/dictio/kinkou/mikkyo.html
Darcy Posted July 24, 2014 Report Posted July 24, 2014 The ken cuts through illusions. Fudo Myoo carries that sword and a rope with which to bind evil. So he is a deliverer of justice, bringer of wisdom, and the two of these go hand in hand. Putting a suken on a sword invokes Fudo Myoo, so we can see some sympathetic as well as real magic. Whenever you look at it you are reminded of wisdom and justice, of seeing through illusions to the truth, and being motivated by the truth and not falseness. So it has a very real effect in this way, as well as what may be a magical effect. We see the rope sometimes in horimono, the most famous Kinju tanto features it. But the suken is probably the most popular horimono in all its variations. Interestingly there are far more suken horimono than ken that have been handed down. What you have with a ken tanto is a direct manifestation then of a ken, so something that you can hold and have that will keep your spirit aligned with the way of righteousness. Something to contemplate and remember as well as give you this kind of guidance and protection. All of it is to keep you on the path, so indeed it is religious but probably more spiritual. Same way as a christian might have a cross and we'd ask, well what does this thing do, what is it for? It's a symbol of belief, a reminder of a higher calling and higher principles, and a focus of attention in times of need or suffering. It's a talisman. In this case the talisman can also be used to stab someone but hey, different strokes for different folks. They are fairly rare but they are seen going all the way back to Heian and probably before too. There is also a quite amazing Tokubetsu Juyo signed Mitsutada ken. Horimono are common, often just a small hi, but sometimes bonji and sukashi horimono. Mostly they are diamond like in cross section but some are flat. Some of the older ones have tempering only on the upper portion. The oldest seem to be associated with Yamato and you see this attribution as Yamato ko-Ken fairly often on them. There are more variations on shape in the older ones, and the newer ones seem to have less in the way of horimono and start looking a bit more like a yari. Probably that the monks are the customers for the oldest of them helps seal the deal on the religious connotation. There are about 60 or so Juyo ken. This one was recently polished by Ted Tenold.
Ken-Hawaii Posted July 24, 2014 Author Report Posted July 24, 2014 Much appreciated, Darcy. And wonderful photos, as usual. Ken
Darcy Posted July 24, 2014 Report Posted July 24, 2014 Much appreciated, Darcy. And wonderful photos, as usual. Ken Thanks! However, Ted took these. I have trained him and now he does it better than me.
Brian Posted July 24, 2014 Report Posted July 24, 2014 Damn Ted..that is beautiful. Great photos! Stunning ken! At least the DB school of photography influence is clearly visible. Brian
Curran Posted July 24, 2014 Report Posted July 24, 2014 Photos yes, but more impressed by the polish. Language skill in Japanese still has far far far to go, but this thread got me wondering about "Kenji" etymology. I knew it as Police Inspector or Detective. Online dictionary says: 堅持 kenji holding on to; sticking to 検事 kenji public prosecutor 健児 kenji stalwart youth 剣璽 kenji sacred sword and jewels Guido and Markus can educate us further, but I agree with it as a symbol going back to at least 800 AD- but probably much further - as a symbol of wisdom, judgement, and all things sort of Law or Judicial.
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