Any idea on type of fish?

CurtisR · July 8, 2014

Greetings all,

I know that these tsuba are "average", and my guess so far would be Edo period but what's bugging me is what KIND of fish would these be? They don't look quite like Salmon, nor koi...is there another fish that was revered (or just 'liked') enough to warrant making them into tsuba? :? They came from a 'cobbled together' koshirae, so no help there ------

Any guesses?

Thanks in advance,

Curtis R.

Bugyotsuji · July 8, 2014

Anything like this?

http://www2.edu.ipa.go.jp/gz/c1part/c1g ... /c1et8.jpg

Bugyotsuji · July 8, 2014

They seem fairly close...

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ayu ... 8&sp=1&sk=

CurtisR · July 8, 2014

Thank you Piers, I think you nailed it! The "Ayu"...here's a pic I found that really is close. I'll have to research 'em a bit to see their history relating to life in Japan, but I'm thinking it's dead-on?

Curtis R.

Dr Fox · July 8, 2014

Japanese trout!

http://www.artsconnected.org/resource/3 ... -of-a-pair

CurtisR · July 8, 2014

Pretty much so, Dennis! I read about them last night and they've been a sport fish for a looooong time (wouldn't mind trying my luck on 'em heh-heh!). And they sound tasty. The article I read said that even the bones are easy to eat and taste good - although opinions are like, well, you know lol.

I think we've successfully ID'd the little buggers, and thanks to you all again...even though they aren't masterpieces of goto work, I like the idea that they're not a subject commonly used in menuki . The work's not terrible but would have been really cool if the maker had spent some time giving them some scales or what not. Ahhhhh well - we rarely get it "all", right?

Anyone who's delt with these little Ayu fishies, feel free to leave an opinion or stories of other's you ay have seen, and when they may have been popular as a subject.

Curtis R.

Ludolf Richter · July 8, 2014

Here a Kozuka with a similar fish,made by Kikuoka Mitsutomo.Ludolf

CurtisR · July 8, 2014

Very nice Ludolph - thanks for posting! I'll look up the maker and perhaps gain some insight on time periods this theme was 'popular' (if that's even possible but hey, I'll try!).

Curtis R.

nagamaki - Franco · July 8, 2014

Hello, at least to my eye suggest you continue searching as the mouth, fins, and tail are much different on the menuki fish than anything shown so far.

CurtisR · July 8, 2014

You have a point Franco - the mouth is more like a cod's than a speedy river fish (that - from what I read - prefers to be solo & territorial). The Ayu is the closest thing so far, but you're right. Perhaps it's an imagined, stylized fish that the maker came up with. I'll name it "Area 51 fish" perhaps ?

Curtis R.

cabowen · July 8, 2014

Ayu fishing is very popular in Japan. They are a type of trout I was told.....They are tasty, especially coated with salt and roasted whole over a fire pit. They are small, make 6"-8" long and eaten whole, bones and all....Crunch crunch crunch, like potato chips....

nagamaki - Franco · July 9, 2014

A type of Japanese catfish would be my bid here done in bronze.

ROKUJURO · July 9, 2014

Salmons and trouts are salmonides, and they have a small second fin on the back which is called 'adipose fin' (or sometimes fat fin).

So if the MENUKI are conciously created after a special type of fish, it would probably be a trout or a 'relative'.

Dr Fox · July 9, 2014

Here a Kozuka with a similar fish,made by Kikuoka Mitsutomo.Ludolf

If I were a betting man, I would say this is a fish designed by a committee.

Head shape and undershot jaw suggest a predator.

There are no indicators of pectoral fins. These are used for steering and usually placed at centre of gills. One set.

The fins position on this fish indicate they are pelvic fins, that being the case it has two sets.( where legs would be?)

The dorsal, and anal fins mirror each other. (?)

Elongated body (predator) terminating in a forked caudal fin. (unbalanced)

It does not look a final product! Dare I suggest its an image and not a portrait?.

A picture of the actual fish would seal the deal.

CurtisR · July 9, 2014

Ahhhhh a true mystery fish!

Honestly it's odd to me as both omote & ura have 2 fish per side; as Jean said,they don't really look like a carp - more streamlined perhaps? It's very possible we'll never kniw what there little buggers are "supposed" to be, up to and including Barracuda .

The koshirae they came with didn't really have any rhyme or reason, so no luck there either. Guess we may never know, but unless I get an amazing offer just for their uniqueness I'll just add them to the collection. Oh, and they're non-ferrous, BTW.

Thanks for everyone's help and if I DO find out I'll post the answer asap!

Curtis R.

Soshin · July 9, 2014

Salmons and trouts are salmonides, and they have a small second fin on the back which is called 'adipose fin' (or sometimes fat fin).
So if the MENUKI are conciously created after a special type of fish, it would probably be a trout or a 'relative'.

Hi Jean,

Adipose is just a scientific way we Biologist say fat. For example I am not fat I just have extensive layering of Adipose tissue on my abdominal area which gives me a degree of famine resistance. :lol:

ROKUJURO · July 9, 2014

David,

thank you, I know what ADIPOSITAS/obesity is. These salmonide fins are called that way, not my invention!

Soshin · July 10, 2014

Hi Jean C. ,

I wonder if this fin is near a fat layer on the fish's body? The Biologist in me wants to dissect one after Curtis R. catches it. :lol:

CurtisR · July 22, 2014

Well, I think I found an image that confirms the suspicion...the Ayu fish! Thanks again for everyone's help - now I have solid info. on them for the collection :D .

CurtisR · August 8, 2014

First let me apologize - the following does not lend itself to dissection, sadly

I was just looking through some old ref. materials and found this fuchi/kashira that seems to confirm that the Ayu fish was pretty important (or revered perhaps?) once upon a time. Since they were found as menuki on my Koto/Muromachi Tsuka and then here in gold, I'll have to research them a bit more .

Thanks again everyone!

Curtis

Jean · August 9, 2014

http://thefisheriesblog.com/2013/05/28/ ... w-answers/

Nobody · August 9, 2014

Here a Kozuka with a similar fish,made by Kikuoka Mitsutomo.Ludolf

While the origial question has been answered, I think that the fish in the quoted image of a kozuka might be a Shirauo (白魚).

Ref. Shirauo (白魚) - Salangichthys microdon

http://www.agri-kanagawa.jp/naisui/fishfile/sirauo.html

CurtisR · August 9, 2014

Jean-san...that is an excellent article and the video cracked me up! --- apparently being a Cowboy involves much more than I've been led to believe!! I'd put the Beer Smilies here but we must now come up with some wine/Champagne glasses .