handachi katana - dating possible?

[stekemest]

Hello,

 

Some time ago, I got this katana as a present. You can't see any hamon or hada on the blade and the nakago (mumei) has been cleaned (terrible, I know). I also know that it's not worth much, but I like it anyway. Now I'd like to know if it's possible to date this sword. There is a mei on the tsuba: SHOAMI IESHIGE.

 

I showed this sword to various people, and opinions ranged from late muromachi to shinshinto times, with an average of people saying it roughly dates between 1550-1700.

 

The mune is totally flat (maybe a maru mune) and the nagasa is 68 cm.

 

I desperately try to find out more about this sword, so please answer what you think about it. I really appreciate any help and thank you very much in advance,

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[paulb]

Peter,

I think trying to offer more information on this will be very difficult. The fact that the nakago has been "cleaned" certainly doesnt help.

Also the fact you can see neither hada nor hamon makes appraisal (at least for me) virtually impossible. Based on what you have said and the pictures:

1. The shape looks pretty good and to me suggests mid 1500s to early 1600s.

2. The nakago if it is ubu looks fairly short suggesting Bizen but I am a little worried by the shape of the butt.

3. The flat mune is a concern. If it is Maru mune it should be rounded not flat. I cant remember seeing a sword with a flat mune before. Either way, low maru mune or flat would lead me to some of the mass-produced blades coming out of Osafune or seki in the late 15th to mid 16th century.

These were made using traditional materials by groups of smiths SUkesada in Bizen Kanesada and Kanemoto in Seki and were regarded as functional swords rather than art blades.

Its an intereting piece and a great present to have received. If you have the opportunity take it to a show or club so people can see it "in hand" I am sure they can give you a better opinion.

regards

Paul

[stekemest]

Thank you very much, Paul!

 

Does anyone else have an opinion about this? Come on guys, you're the experts!

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi Peter,

 

pics of munemachi?

 

pics of mune from above kissaki looking down?

[stekemest]

Hi nagamaki,

 

I can't take pictures of the munemachi as the habaki seems to be fixed somehow. But I'll show some pictures of the mune later this day.

 

Peter

[stekemest]

I just don't manage to get any pictures of the mune. Seems my camera is too bad for it, sorry.

 

As I said, it's just flat, maybe a bit rounded, but rather flat.

 

Peter

[Grey Doffin]

Does anyone else have an opinion about this? Come on guys, you're the experts!

Expert. From its Greek roots. x, meaning "the great unknown" and spurt, meaning "drip under pressure".

Grey

[Mark]

From what i can see i would not exclude Showa as age, the nakago does not look very old, the basic shape (shinogi, edges etc) are poorly made, an old sword , even if cleaned, will have a well made nakago. The blade shape and kissaki also suggest Showa to me.

[stekemest]

Hmm, Showa? That would be disappointing. I'm quite sure the nakago has been cleaned and the yasurime are not as clear as I know it from showa pieces.

Any more opinions still very appreciated...

 

Peter

[stekemest]

I've tried to take some photos of monouchi area and the mune. You can see that it is rather flat. Any other opinions regarding the date (Showa or Sue-Koto/Shinto?).

Sorry for annoying, it's just quite important to me, as it's my only daito and I'd like to know what I have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you all so far.

[Brian]

Peter,

 

Can't make out what is happening with the mune there, but the shinae ware, condition and fact that the mekugi ana looks punched would rule out Showa for me, and since there is indications that the nakago was well rusted and corroded before the cleaning, would say it is at least a shinto, maybe late Koto. I don't see much to indicate Showa there, and the fact that the nakago seems shortened maybe (not that well) also gives me that impression.

The yasurime though are still a bit too clear for too much age, so perhaps we are looking at a Shinto indeed.

Difficult one from pics, and the best way to come to a conclusion would be to try and get it to a sword meeting near you, where they can look at it in hand.

I don't think the shape of the mune is too much indicator here, as it could have easily been changed with an incorrect polish by an amateur.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Mark]

any chance you will be at the SF show? there would be plenty of people who could give you an opinion

[Ed Harbulak]

If the mune of your blade is indeed maru mune, it could be from the Kaifu school of Awa Kuni. This school is noted for using maru mune. I have a wak with a true maru mune signed Ashu Kaiful Ju Ujiyoshi. The mei is nicely engraved on the surface of the blade itself so as to be a horimono in addition to the smith's signature. I've seen other blades by this same smith (or family of smiths) signed the same way and with maru mune. They worked up through the Shinshinto period. Other smiths besides Ujiyoshi were Yasuyoshi, Yasunaga, Yasunobu, Ujishige, Ujihisa, Fuji and Morohisa. They made some very good blades although are not particularly highly regarded by the Japanese "experts". But you have to remember that the "experts" generally like blades by the big name smiths which omits most of the swords most of us have or are likely to get. Hope this helps.

Ed Harbulak

[AndreasU]

For me it is clear that the mune was "polished" with a polishing weel.

I believe it was a iori mune or maybe mitsu mune that is grinded down by the polishing weel. Picture #2 indicates this quite well.

 

From a total view it would make sence that something happened when I keep in mind that the previous owner already sandblastet the nakago for a "real" restauration. Seems that this polishing is also a result of this.

 

BUT, to be 100% sure I would sugest to show the blade to someone who knows Nihonto from a-z.

 

This board is maybe the wrong place for this as pictures never give a perfect view.

[Mark]

looking at the new pictures give me a different flavor. The close up of the kissaki is helpful. I take back my idea of Showa, it looks older than that. The looseness and ware' in the shinogi-ji make me wonder if it could be retempered?

[stekemest]

Hello,

 

any chance you will be at the SF show? there would be plenty of people who could give you an opinion

 

Unfortunately no, it's too far for me to travel.

 

I take back my idea of Showa, it looks older than that.

 

Very glad to hear that.

 

I thank you all very much for your help. It's a shame what the previous owner made with the sword, but I like it nevertheless.

 

Peter

[Tokaido]

San Francisco should be first choice for the US based collectors this year, or Tampa Florida, next year.

 

For the Europa based collectors:

http://www.nbthk.net/NBTHKe/Membership.html

Good for first contact, too.

Last meeting was in Oxford (GB), next meeting (September) will take place in Bonn (Germany).

 

 

Greetings

Andreas

[stekemest]

Bonn - that sounds good. I think I'll be there. Thank you, Andreas!

[stekemest]

Hello,

 

Maybe some of you remember the handachi sword that I showed several years ago. In the meantime I got a part of it polished and would like to know if the polished part can provide any additional information concerning the age of the blade. I would be very glad for any answers.

 

Peter

[stekemest]

Can nothing more be said?

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Peter,

The hada shows nicely but the hamon/yakiba have been obscured by the polisher's finish. All I can see is hadori.

Grey

[kusunokimasahige]

So basically it is Keisho.

 

KM

[stekemest]

Thank you. I didn't ask the polisher for a perfect polish, so he just opened a window to see some of the blade's structures. It was in a very bad condition and it was hard to work it to this point, he said.

So this polished part can not provide any more information about the date of the sword, together with the first pictures?

 

Thanks again.

Peter

[Tokaido]

Hello Peter,

there are very few types of hada, which allow an emediately conclusion about the smith without seeing the hada in good polish.

One sample is the distinct hada of Gassan school (which is not on your sword, sorry).

Looking at your pictures, I *think* I can see a masame like hada within the shinogi ji.

But this might be a misinterpretation because of the polish (It is a wild guess, please checkt it with the blade).

If it IS masame, you can start reserching from this point: masame in shinogi ji, some itame-like in hira-ji

 

The hamon would give a clue about the sword, but as Grey allready pointed out:

there is NO hamon visible, just some scratching/whitening along the edge.

(I do not dare to call THIS a kesho / hadori work, sorry).

 

Greetings

Andreas

[kusunokimasahige]

True Andreas, there is no hamon visible whatsoever.

 

I call this Keisho because it is "made up" (see the book: The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing). It is not a fully finished polish.

 

If there would be a Hamon present, it might have shown when the entire Ji and Ha would have been polished with Hazuya after which the Ji would have been done with Jizuya. ( this happened with my gimei Masayuki Gunto after using fingerstones very very carefully... The hamon came back because it was there to begin with, but "buffed invisible" at some stage in the blades history )

 

 

 

 

 

The blade you have looks "old" however, as in, polished many many times. However, age is difficult to attain through only the Hamon.

 

KM

[stekemest]

Thank you for the explanations. Do you think it would help to show the sword to someone in person?

[kusunokimasahige]

If you have access to some of the members of this board who are very knowledgeable, yes most definetely.

 

There will always be people willing to help out, sword in hand.

 

I see you live in Germany so maybe there are some members from your country who would like to help out.

 

KM

[Jean]

Peter,

 

You have in the European NBTHK branch a lot of experts, so try to bring them your sword, they are in Germany.

[Tokaido]

Hi,

next meeting of NBTHK EB is next Saturday (March 24th) in Nürnberg.

Contact: http://www.nbthk.net/NBTHK/NBTHK_Startseite.html

 

Another chance is: http://www.nihonto-club.de/

 

Greetings

 

Andreas

[Jean]

Thanks Andreas