Require assistance with identification.

[Stu W]

Hello All,

 

This dagger has recently been posted on a militaria forum (WAF) for analysis and identification. Opinions vary and range from junk to perhaps an unknown colonial piece. I'll quote the presenter here and then supply the photos. If anyone can ID the piece it would be appreciated.

 

Regards,

Stu

"I'm trying to identify this short sword, which I believe is Japanese in origin (due to its overall configuration and what appear to be chrysanthemum flowers on the pommel, scabbard throat and drag). The "mum's" are seemingly cast into the heavy brass adornments of both the pommel and scabbard fittings, and then have hand-etched enhancements of leaves, etc. The grip appears to be tortoise shell and is wrapped in a single strand of brass wire. The guard / quillion is a simple affair, ending in two "ball" finials. There is a washer on either side with a sort of "serrated" edge. The blade is peened through the pommel, hence I can not disassemble it to inspect the tang for signatures, etc. The blade itself measures 11 3/4 inches long, and has a very sharp edge. The overall length of the entire piece is 21 inches. The scabbard is unadorned steel with the exception of the throat and drag, which is adorned with the aforementioned brass w/ chrysanthemum motif. I can find NO other markings extant on the piece. From what limited reference material I've got, the closest I've been able to come, due to the style of the fittings, is perhaps something to do w/ "Colonial" type swords?"

[Stu W]

Here are two additional photos.

 

It has been suggested that this is a Chinese reproduction of a Japanese naval dirk. Given the quality of construction and dimensions I doubt that but would very much like to get feedback both so I can learn as well as assist the owner.

 

Regards,

Stu

[Brian]

Stu,

Is this the one where the owner was repeatedly told it was a Chinese repro, but doesn't seem to accept that, and thinks that at worst it must be a copy of a recognized pattern?

The Chinese do make fantasy pieces too. Imho, this is one of them. Shinogi zukuri tanto? :|

 

Brian

[Stu W]

Stu,

Is this the one where the owner was repeatedly told it was a Chinese repro, but doesn't seem to accept that, and thinks that at worst it must be a copy of a recognized pattern?

The Chinese do make fantasy pieces too. Imho, this is one of them. Shinogi zukuri tanto? :|

 

Brian

 

Hello Brian,

 

There have been quite a number of this type of thread and I am unable to say if this is the one you refer to.

 

Comments to date on the thread on WAF have been mixed although they started out with "China crap". In addition the number of people commenting is actually very small.

 

The concern of the owner is that such a reply really offers nothing in terms of analysis.

 

Could it be a Chinese reproduction? Certainly, but of what? It could also be a fantasy piece. Compared to the many other repro IJN dirks out there it stands well above their level of quality.

 

Anyway, all info appreciated. I have no financial interest in this piece, just want to see if it might be an authentic piece made for an as yet unknown (to me) agency or organization.

 

Regards,

Stu

[Brian]

Stu,

It is the one I was following. You, Guy, Bob, Stephen and Thomas usually provide decent info on WAF, so I am happy to sit back and lurk

On this kind of Chinese sword, for me the give away is always the habaki. I can't even describe why, but they all have that odd look to them. Maybe it is the tapering, or the steep shinogi ji, or the finishing in the front of the habaki..or something. But so many of the Chinese fakes have this look to them that is an immediate give-away. Hard to pinpoint why. Perhaps that thin shinogi zukuri shape that looks like a miniature wakizashi.

Whatever it is, sure looks like a fake to me.

 

Brian

[Grey Doffin]

Yes; the habaki Brian. Every real habaki is tapered so it can provide a firm fit inside the koi-guchi, regardless of wood movement due to humidity and also to allow for some wear of the wood. The habaki on this dagger is straight sided and that should be a dead give-away.

Grey

[Stu W]

OK, thank you both. That is something constructive I can take back. Much appreciated and in my case something I'll keep a watchful eye on in the future.

 

Regards,

Stu

[Ed Harbulak]

It also looks like the Hamachi is just ahead of the habaki, if the thin black line I see is indeed the hamachi. Take the habaki off and see how it matches up with the machi. It sure isn't Japanese whatever it is.