Menuki ,,signed?

[Curran]

Agree with Pete on this one.

 

Not sure if it is his profession that has given him such a broad view into the was, is, and will be of the minute under magnification,

but over the years have learned to look a second time when he says something like this. Having looked, agree these are 'stepped on'.

 

The condescending response to his post just made me immediately think of this book:

[Ford Hallam]

No Brian, I wasn't condescending. I merely pointed out the obvious, that there's too much conjecture offered as reasoned opinion when in truth it isn't based on any relevant technical understanding. The original poster expressed confusion as to the conflicting opinions offered. I simply provided a perfectly reasonable suggestion as to how he might evaluate those opinions.

 

Seems to me there are some here who are quite happy to talk down to newcomers but get just a bit bent out of shape when the tables are turned.

 

And let me spell it out, I don't care how carefully anyone examines work, or under what magnification, unless they understand the processes used and the behaviour of all these metals and alloys in any number of conditions they are still utterly in the dark as to what they are seeing.

 

It seems to me what is being argued for here is some sort of parity between professional opinion and those of hobbyists. Frankly, that seems a bit presumptuous to me. Would anyone here argue for the same sort of equality in respect of opinions on technical matters relating to polishing or smithing if we had active Japanese sword-smiths and polishers on the board? I don't bloody well think so.

 

I leave you to it, good luck.

 

さようなら

 

Ford (that tsuba bloke who's being doing this stuff most days and all day for 33 years)

[kaigunair]

Unfortunate turn on this thread. Happens from time to time, but never nice to see.

Especially between two members whose opinion I don't always agree with, but always know its going to be treat to hear; I can always count on their posts as being of original thought, unlike much of the bandwagoning onto other's thoughts and opinions that occurs way too much....perhaps trying to log higher post counts, in the way some manage facebook friend numbers...

 

But I know I too am guilty of thinking that some people shouldn't post what they don't know about...but then realize later that perhaps their post did provide some insightful comment (even if unintentionally ) when I took the time to take it seriously and dive into preparing a full and proper response, even if it never gets posted...

 

Wish the 'net had a better way to virtually hold these types of conversations that are better done at a table with a round of ....

 

PS: Per the post's original questions, I would have guessed late edo, possibly for export. Most importantly, not of high quality. Could be a combo of casting plus some finishing work on the surface and back. Speeds up production while adding some level of detail. My caveats: I 'm really bad at seeing the quality of work in very early kinko fittings (ezo, mino, kyo...), and I'm in the amateur hobbyist/armchair historian category...

[ROKUJURO]

Gentlemen,

 

Brian is right: everybody has a right to his own opinion and to see what is there.

 

Cast MENUKI.doc

[Stephen]

dont know what that was JC as it would not open

 

Heres one like it that may shead some light on the other.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281370310344?_t ... _730wt_892

[Ford Hallam]

It seems I made a mistake...

 

When I pointed out the file marks on the back of these disputed menuki I had assumed their significance would be immediately apparent to anyone who cared to consider them.

 

Traditionally made, genuine, menuki are formed from flat sheet metal and the backs, once all shaping has been completed are filed lengthwise to provide a curved cross section that allows the menuki to fit more snugly against the tsuka. This is why whenever you see file marks on the edges of the back of menuki the lines always run lengthwise. If you think about how you'd go about using a half round cross-sectioned filed to file in that curvature it becomes self evident. Of course this shaping must be carried out before the ashi (those little pegs) are soldered in place because they'd be in the way otherwise.

 

When I referred to those file marks on the cast copies I was pointing out that those marks were in that direction because the faker couldn't easily file in the usual direction, nor readily establish any curvature for that matter, because the peg was cast as part of the whole thing and was in the way of a proper file stroke. This is a fairly common feature of cheap reproduction casts.

 

There are a number of other details that confirm it as a casting but I hope I've made my point about the importance of understanding what you're seeing when it comes to trying to analyse these objects.

[Brian]

No, you have made the point of how important it is to explain statements and opinions when making them

Thank you for that. Learned something new that I will be able to take with me next time I view menuki.

This is why everyone is allowed their opinions, but the explanations that come with those opinions allow us to combine this with the knowledge of the person stating the opinion and formulate our own (now educated) opinions. Statments without explanations lessen the impact of education.

Good point on the filemarks.

 

Brian

[Soshin]

Traditionally made, genuine, menuki are formed from flat sheet metal and the backs, once all shaping has been completed are filed lengthwise to provide a curved cross section that allows the menuki to fit more snugly against the tsuka. This is why whenever you see file marks on the edges of the back of menuki the lines always run lengthwise. If you think about how you'd go about using a half round cross-sectioned filed to file in that curvature it becomes self evident. Of course this shaping must be carried out before the ashi (those little pegs) are soldered in place because they'd be in the way otherwise.

 

When I referred to those file marks on the cast copies I was pointing out that those marks were in that direction because the faker couldn't easily file in the usual direction, nor readily establish any curvature for that matter, because the peg was cast as part of the whole thing and was in the way of a proper file stroke. This is a fairly common feature of cheap reproduction casts.

Hi Ford,

 

Thank you so much for the detail explanation above. I am aware of how menuki are basically made but your explanation was very helpful with connecting the important points to understand the process better and the importance of the filemarks at odd angles on the back surface of the menuki.

 

P.S. I am in the market for some high quality menuki and this topic has been very helpful with educating me before I buy.

[Ford Hallam]

oh! and Curran, while the book cover you posted was amusing perhaps this one would be more appropriate if you meant to direct it at me