Menuki ,,signed?

[Kai-Gunto]

Just got this set of menuki. Can anyone recognize the maker?

Sorry about my poor photos.

[Marius]

Maker, hm... ?

 

These are cast copies, sorry.

[Brian]

Not convinced. Wash them in soap and water with a soft brush, and let's see what they look like after.

I am not sure that cast copies would go to the trouble of inserting a plate and mei.

 

Brian

[Kai-Gunto]

Thanks Marius, I had my doubts about them.

[Marius]

Let us hope Brian is right, not me

[Soshin]

Hi Thomas,

 

Not going to say one way or the other. Can you post better photos? The lighting is really poor with the shadows being cast on the menuki and focus is a bit off making it very hard to read the signature.

[Kai-Gunto]

[Marius]

Thomas,

 

much better, thank you I was wrong, I am happy to say :-)

 

These menuki are real, and nice, too :-)

[John A Stuart]

That looks like the nanori michi, 通 Not very common, the second is tough to read. Mito style work, perhaps? John

[Ludolf Richter]

Seal + Mei Tsûjô,like the Nyûdô-name of Gotô Mitsunaga?Ludolf

[leo]

They really look a bit like cast and stained brass, maybe repatinated later.

 

There is a way to find out if they are casts or not:

The little badges with the mei were originally thin metal, soldered into the back of the menuki. So usually there is a gap visible underneath which is not easily accomplished in a cast.

 

If the metal goes down to the bottom in one solid block, its probably cast.

 

Martin

[Kai-Gunto]

There is no gab.

[Brian]

I had automatically assumed the mei plates were separate and soldered in. If, as you say they are solid with no signs of them having been separate, then it is me who is wrong and they are cast. Odd, because the mei look cut and not cast, they don't have that rounded look to them. But I suppose they could be cast in with the menuki. Under magnification you should easily be able to see if the plates, and also the pegs, are one piece with the rest of the menuki or not. If they are, then cast and repro as Martin and Mariusz said.

 

Brian

[John A Stuart]

Ludolf, I agree, 後藤通乗 John

[Justin Grant]

The back of the naginata looks to have a casting bubble on both of them, and the finishing of them looks rough on the back. Just my opinion.

[Soshin]

Hi Thomas,

 

Thank you for taking the time to post the additional photos they are very helpful. This type of signature on menuki is call tanzaku-mei (短冊銘). I am of the opinion that the set look cast the small flat plate with the signature (tanzaku) on the backside looks like it is part of the cast. The small plates (tanzaku) should show signs of have been carved with the signature and then inserted as separate pieces after the menuki were completed. The central pegs again something that is added later and sometimes adjusted or lost also look like they were part of the cast. There is a old lesson that the backside of menuki are can tell you a lot about the quality and authenticity of menuki in question.

[Ford Hallam]

This will have to stop

 

I agree with David Stiles...again and the others who acutely pointed out various tell tale signs of a cast copy.

 

Worth bearing in mind that a well equipped jewellers studio can reproduce gold menuki, even top quality Goto stuff, to a degree of crispness that will fool even the sharpest eyes. With vacuum casting equipment a fingerprint in wax can be reproduced. To date we've been dealing with inept repros but that may change

[Marius]

Aha! So I was right! And wrong! And now right again

 

when it comes to menuki, I promise to keep my mouth

[Soshin]

Worth bearing in mind that a well equipped jewellers studio can reproduce gold menuki, even top quality Goto stuff, to a degree of crispness that will fool even the sharpest eyes. With vacuum casting equipment a fingerprint in wax can be reproduced. To date we've been dealing with inept repros but that may change

 

Hi Ford,

 

Been doing some study of fine menuki with NBTHK papers in hand at the last Tampa show. Thanks for the information this does not sound good for the collecting hobby of fine antique menuki.

[Ian]

Not just menuki

[Pete Klein]

Well then, it's 'fly in the ointment' time for me. These are not cast copies but old menuki which have been messed with - big time. I believe what you are seeing is some type of coloring used on the front and back. Much of the gold highlighting is lost and I must wonder if the menuki were 'touched up' to make them more sellable. When you look closely at the backs you can see the deep areas are original patina with the surroundings being colored over, the mimi having remnants of gold in small areas but mostly lost to the coloring agent. Two of the post 'roots' are original color with the rest blackened. The tanzaku are open underneath and the seams top and bottom mostly obscured by the re-coloring agent although one is visible. The left and right extensions are mostly filled, possibly with a mounting agent. I really believe these are not modern and also, to be frank, why would anyone go to all this bother to make something this bad to sell? :|

[Ford Hallam]

Quick...sell these to Pete then

 

 

but on a serious note, examine the images of the back. Consider what properly formed menuki, by means of uchidashi, look like an then have a look at those 'blobby; ends of these copies. The file marks going across the piece is in themselves a clue.

[Soshin]

Hi Ford,

 

Good obervation about the diagonal file marks on the back surface of the menuki. I missed that but can clearly see them after you pointed them out. I am still of the opinion that these are cast reproductions.

[Kai-Gunto]

Thanks to all for their inputs

 

Im still confused about them

[Ford Hallam]

Perhaps when evaluating input you might consider the qualifications of said input. As an example if I asked for opinions on a dental issue I'd probably take the comments of a qualified dentist more seriously than, say, an amateur dental 'historian'

[Pete Klein]

I believe that is the singularly most petty thing you've ever written here Ford. It is also quite illogical, as it presumes that I or others cannot be adept at more than one field.

 

I will keep my observations and opinions to myself from now on as they are obviously unworthy and/or unappreciated. Have fun.

[Ford Hallam]

My point was simple enough. The fact is there is far too much conjecture and speculation among collectors regarding technical aspects of the craft that is conducted without any real grasp of the actual processes involved. Not to mention interpretation of what we see based on no references other than those imagined by collectors before us.

 

And I made no presumptions, or are you claiming in-depth knowledge of tosogu manufacture?

[Henry Wilson]

 

Ford hits a home run once again!

 

[nagamaki - Franco]

Im still confused about them

 

Explain?

[Brian]

Ford,

I really think that was uncalled for. And condescending.

Pete took great care to explain every point he made. Whether wrong or right, he is very entitled to his (educated) opinion, and whilst your background certainly gives you huge credibility when expressing an opinion, that is not the end of a discussion. Never will be. We have experts on just about every aspect of Nihonto here, but everyone should post their ideas and opinions as long as they take the time to explain why. The posting of an opinion here (because that is all it is, whether educated or not) is never going to be the final word on a subject.

Pete's opinion on tosogu is vastly better than most of ours here. I welcome his input anytime he expresses it. You made your points. People reading them will decide for themselves which points are more valid. That's how we learn. The Japanese way might be "listen to the Master and don't question anything" but that isn't how we work. We listen to ideas and explanations, and then ask more questions, and then make up our minds. Your opinion is of huge help here. Learn a lot every time you take time to express it. But that comment is so far out of line as to be comical.

 

Brian